Thursday, April 7, 2011

Is the way she dressed pertinent in a rape case?

Wearing high heels and fishnet stockings and brandishing signs with slogans like “down with rape culture,” "slut walk" demonstrators took to the streets in Toronto last week to protest a Toronto police officer’s comment that women could avoid rape if they didn’t dress like “sluts.” See here.

Let's state the obvious: no woman "asks" to be raped because of the way she dresses, and no rapist should ever be excused because he raped a woman who looked like the proverbial "slut."  And guess what?  Aside from the occasional inane comment like the one that gave the chronically offended gender police an excuse to protest in Toronto, hardly anyone even believes that, much less says it.  Usually the only people repeating the silly mantra that people think women ask to be raped because of the way they dress are angry feminists who insist this is how people really think. It is a straw man trotted out to affirm victimhood.

By the same token, to pretend that the way a woman dresses has no bearing whatsoever on issues related to sexual assault is a puerile absurdity. Men and women do not exchange written consent forms before proceeding with intercourse. A woman's secret, undisclosed intentions, whims, and desires have no bearing on the question of whether there was consent. The only thing that matters is her outward manifestations of assent, which may be expressed in an infinite variety of ways, both verbally and non-verbally, and which must be viewed in the context of all the surrounding circumstances.

In a dispute over an allegation of sexual assault where the woman claims there was no consent and the man claims there was, all manner of evidence is pertinent to helping the trier of fact figure out if there was consent. For example, did the woman invite a man to her apartment when she knew nobody else would be there?  Did she serve him wine?  Did she light candles and put on background music?  Before heading to her apartment, did they stop at the store to pick up some condoms? Did she unbutton his shirt and remove it for him? Was she wearing clothing that revealed ample portions of her breasts? 

None of these factors are alone dispositive of the question of whether or not there was actually consent at the moment of penetration. But to varying degrees, they are consistent with conduct a reasonable person associates with a romantic tryst that often leads to consensual sex. And, yes, that includes the way she dressed.

Put it this way, if a nun were raped and the issue in dispute was consent, would any feminist object to evidence that she was wearing the habit of her religious order at the time?

Some radical feminists would like to exclude from trial any evidence tending to prove consent except the accuser's verbal and enthusiastic "yes!"  Of course, that's not the law anywhere because that's not how real people have consensual sex.  Consensual sex is often conducted in a murky land of glances, caresses, heavy breathing, and incomprehensible half-sentences. Asking a jury to figure out what happened after-the-fact is generally asking a jury to perform an impossibility. Jurors can only go on what they know, which often isn't much.

We have reached the stage where even the legitimate consideration of surrounding circumstances in a consent case leads to charges of "victim blaming," another handy feminist discussion closer that is intended to brand the alleged "victim blamer" as morally inferior.  The problem with people who are wont to cry "victim blaming" is that, to them, every woman who cries "rape" is automatically the "victim."  That pretty much tells you all you need to know about them.

34 comments:

zarko said...

I have always wondered precisely why the feminists insist rape is about power.

It clearly isn't the case for a large number of rapists. Actual rape I mean, not the one where the girl has a sip of wine and is raped because the ingestion of alcohol means by default lack of consent. It's more about the desire for sex, is it not?

Just... strange.

Christine WE said...

If it were just about the desire for sex, why overpower someone and take it against their will?

AfOR said...

The simple fact that these assholes try to conceal with their straw man invective is this.

Wimminz who dress like sluts, act like sluts, and being wimminz, often suffer from next day regret syndrome.

Next day regrets do not in any way change, after the event, consensual sex into rape.

jso said...

if women are so afraid of rape then why take the risk of putting themselves into any situation that might lead to rape?

or does their ego just overpower their desire to remain safe?

Anonymous said...

In terms of evidence for clothing affecting perception, I've found quite a bit.Mostly psychological journals and studies by the advertising industry.

So of course it seems to be magical thinking that clothing wouldn't affect sexual perception, and would have absolutely no effect on what a rapist would choose to do.

And yet, there is a branch of "feminist" criminology. And I keep running into comments asking me to prove that changing one's clothing style to be less noticeable might reduce the incidence of rape. Not eliminate the risk mind you, just prove it. You know the official feminist position is that no rapist, at no time, no how, was ever influenced to the tiniest degree by the clothes his target was wearing or not wearing.

Does anyone know of such studies or am I going to have to do this myself?

Clarence

Anonymous said...

Christine WE:

If it were just about the desire for money, why overpower someone and take it against their will?

That's why you just made a bad argument.

Besides, it's not like prostitution isn't illegal in most places in the US and Europe. If an evil guy wants sex and doesn't have a girlfriend it seems perfectly logical that he'll attempt to take it by force.

Clarence

Anonymous said...

Besides, it's not like prostitution isn't illegal in most places in the US and Europe. If an evil guy wants sex and doesn't have a girlfriend it seems perfectly logical that he'll attempt to take it by force.
...............

uuuuh...taking sex by force is illegal, too.

I don't think prostitution being legal or illegal would make much difference.

Some guys just don't like to pay for it.

atlas said...

"If an evil guy wants sex and doesn't have a girlfriend it seems perfectly logical that he'll attempt to take it by force."

In some cases maybe, yet I think that's too much profiling. An evil guy might be a well-dressed executive with lots of cash. The possibility of being caught and jailed is one concern wealthy or not. That evil guy could just turn to seeing a prostitute.

Anonymous said...

Ever read "Games People Play?" This particular game is called "uproar."

That's when a women flirts endlessly with a man -- and then acts shocked as soon as he reciprocates!

The problem with our legal system is the exact opposite of what the feminuts claim it is: assuming that women's claims of abuse are true, instead of being appropriately skeptical.

And yes, you can avoid attracting unwanted attention from males by not dressing as a slut.

Dehbashi said...

Forget about how they dress for a moment. I've had women say they should be able to strip their clothes off anywhere without having any fear of being raped and that doesn't mean they give consent if they do so.

Now that's just plain stupid. They honestly expect to strip their clothes in a bedroom with a guy in there and not expect the guy to think that she wants him to screw her. You want that? Go live in a nudist colony. Not the real world.

Archivist said...

Dehbashi, if a woman strips in that manner and we have no other information about what happened except a "he said/she said" rape claim, then there most assuredly would be reasonable doubt as to whether a rape occurred, and no sane D.A. would prosecute that case.

Anonymous said...

The issue isn't "no means no." (That much is obvious.) Rather, the issue is "know means know."

And when it's he said/she said, we simply don't know. Ever.

I thus complete the slut marchers' ditty:

"However we dress and wherever we go
"Yes means yes and no means no

"but when a slut cries rape...
"we can't know fo' sho'!"

slwerner said...

”Let's state the obvious: no woman "asks" to be raped because of the way she dresses, and no rapist should ever be excused because he raped a woman who looked like the proverbial "slut."  And guess what?  Aside from the occasional inane comment like the one that gave the chronically offended gender police an excuse to protest in Toronto, hardly anyone even believes that, much less says it.  Usually the only people repeating the silly mantra that people think women ask to be raped because of the way they dress are angry feminists who insist this is how people really think. It is a straw man trotted out to affirm victimhood.

Well stated! I think this statement should be included on the main page.

That said, I think there is a certain danger inherent in this discussion – it gives our opponents/detractors ammunition to claim that we are “focused” on the issue of the way women dress (and, by extension, the places they chose to go, the people they chose to go with, the drugs and alcohol they chose to consume, etc); trying to spin them into some “justification” for rape – even date rape.

Long-term readers will, of course, easily recognize that this simply isn't the case, but I am concerned that if we get involved in a lengthy discussion of the merit of being able to introduce such evidence in court (I do agree with your take, I would add), there seems to be the risk that our doing so could be deliberately misinterpreted by disreputable people who wish to silence those who would dare to speak out against the scourge of false rape accusations.

Archivist said...

"I think there is a certain danger inherent in this discussion – it gives our opponents/detractors ammunition to claim that we are “focused” on the issue of the way women dress . . . ."

I don't think I've ever think about it except when the feminists bring it up. A woman could trot down the street naked and the only men who'd want to rape her are sociopathic deviants. My sole point is that the entire discussion about this thing people supposedly think (that women "ask" to be raped by the way they dress) seems intended to paint women as victims when there's little evidence this thinking is widespread.

And every time they open their mouths to trot out this straw man, the arguments become more and more peculiar to the point where I read someone actually say that what a woman is wearing has nothing to do with sexual assault. To the contrary, it might be pertinent for the reason I've posited -- as part of the surrounding circumstances, like a number of other things.

Anonymous said...

good point. if i walk through a bad part of town looking like i'm rich and flashing rolls of cash, do i deserve to be robbed? Of course not. I'm still not going to do it though.

Anonymous said...

So if a man wears camouflage is he openly inviting people to shoot at him?
If someone DOES shoot at him was he "asking for it" because he was wearing something that some might consider to be "soldier-like"?

If a man wears a Tapout shirt is he inviting people to punch him in the face and wrestle him to the ground because that slogan is affiliated with organized cage fighting?
And is someone DOES drag him into an alley and beat him is it his fault?

Why is it that ANY OTHER form of violence towards people is not attributed to what someone wears but in the case of rape?

Why can a man wear whatever he wants, whenever he wants and not be accused of "asking for it" if he is assaulted?

If a woman is wearing a nice dress and heels she is not asking anyone to jump her from behind and violently force sex on her.

What someone wears has NO BEARING on an attack laid upon them, yet for some reason only in the case of women are they not allowed to wear certain items of clothing if they don't want to be assaulted.

This mindset that a woman's dress is indicative of her consent is so fucking asinine. No one EVER asks to be raped. No one invites it and no matter what someone wears it is NEVER OKAY to rape them!

I truly, truly hope no woman in your family ever has to go through the horror of being raped, only to be told she was "asking for it" because she dared to wear a tank top.

Get your goddamn heads out of your asses.

Archivist said...

This mindset that a woman's dress is indicative of her consent is so fucking asinine. No one EVER asks to be raped. No one invites it and no matter what someone wears it is NEVER OKAY to rape them!"

What on earth is your problem? You are parroting exactly what I said -- read it again, Einstein. But then you go and twist and pound what I said beyond all recognition so you can launch some literally insane feminist rant. Get it straight, professor: NO WOMAN ASKS TO BE RAPED BY THE WAY SHE DRESSES. Read it again. Then read it again. When a juror is presented with a handful of facts that he or she can reasonably believe are true, the parties' dress -- and candles, and massages, and whispering sweet nothings -- may be part of a picture that suggests conduct consistent with consent. Get it? Reasonable doubt.

And guess what? Girls who dress like sluts certainly can be raped. Nuns who are wearing habits certainly can consent to have sex. But to pretend, for the sake of your gender political correctness, that we should to toss the surrounding circumstances onto a scrapheap of feminist indifference is unjust to the guy on trial for a crime. As much as you'd like to castrate an innocent male.

But thanks for trotting out the straw man that hardly anyone really believes anyway.

Axel said...

To the feminist asshole who wants to paint this blog as Neanderthals, imagine this scenario, which actually happened.

Girl I worked with and I got to be chummy. A few dates, kissing, etc. Then she invites me to her apartment for dinner. Now, this girl typically dressed like a high powered executive. Very professional, even when we were on our first dates. Not that night. For the first time I see her out of her work clothes. She's wearing a "top" that is clearly intended to give me a hard on. I can see half her breasts. She had the lights dimmed and it was very romantic. There were various other indications that this was going to be the night, and it was.

Now, imagine if the next day she had accused me of rape. On trial, according to the asshole, I can't even mention the way she was dressed. Not pertinent to anything. My guess is that the average juror would think it's very pertinent, because it was.

slwerner said...

Archivist - ”And every time they open their mouths to trot out this straw man, the arguments become more and more peculiar to the point where I read someone actually say that what a woman is wearing has nothing to do with sexual assault. To the contrary, it might be pertinent for the reason I've posited -- as part of the surrounding circumstances, like a number of other things.”

Oh, I understand quite well, and I do agree. But, as I mentioned earlier, it opens a door for disreputable people to deliberately misinterpret the intended meaning – for example:

Anonymous (Apr 7, 2011 1:53:00 PM ) - ”So if a man wears camouflage is he openly inviting people to shoot at him?

Blah, blah, blah.

This mindset that a woman's dress is indicative of her consent is so fucking asinine. No one EVER asks to be raped. No one invites it and no matter what someone wears it is NEVER OKAY to rape them!

I truly, truly hope no woman in your family ever has to go through the horror of being raped, only to be told she was "asking for it" because she dared to wear a tank top.

Get your goddamn heads out of your asses.”


See what I mean about disreputable people deliberately misinterpreting the meaning?

Anonymous said...

A woman's dress is no justification for rape, but to insist that the woman's sexual behavior has nothing whatsoever to do with her credibility is ridiculous.

"No means no!" in no way cancels out "innocent until proven guilty," and oftentimes men accused of rape are innocent.

Archivist said...

"See what I mean about disreputable people deliberately misinterpreting the meaning?"

So the answer is . . . not to talk about it?

Anonymous said...

Am surprised by slwerner. He should know this blog doesn't shy away from the tough issues just because feminists will object to it.

Archivist said...

I understand his point. Let's just let it go. He understands me on most things, and I greatly respect him, so I don't want him to feel he has to defend his position. Let it drop.

slwerner said...

Archivist - ”So the answer is . . . not to talk about it?”

I don’t mean that the subject should not be addressed, I simply worry that in the ensuing discussions, well meaning people can end up being lead down the path into dealing with the minutia of individual examples, making it seem as though the woman’s supposed culpability (in that supposed “asking for it”) is a primary focus here at FRS.

You’ve stated it quite succinctly that dress is no excuse for rape, but can still be indicative of a willingness to consent, and I think it would be best left at that. If we delve into after-the-fact regret vs. actual date rape scenarios, the issue become too muddled, and easily confused/(deliberately) mischaracterized. Just my opinion.

Anonymous - "Am surprised by slwerner. He should know this blog doesn't shy away from the tough issues just because feminists will object to it."

I'm far more concerned about the ability of some disreputable person, like the other Anonymous being able to selectively cut-n-paste from the comments to deliberately mischaracterize us elsewhere.

Those that would wish the FRS shutdown (since they wish to silence discussion/illumination of FRA’s, I think we can accurately call them “False Rape Supporters”) are certainly not above playing dirty. Other blogs and forums have ended up getting shut down after being portrayed as “hateful”, etc. The FRS needs to be complete clear about delineating between the crimes of rape, and of false rape allegation, so that it does not end up be accused of supporting rape.

When statements like ”…guy wants sex and doesn't have a girlfriend it seems perfectly logical that he'll attempt to take it by force.”

And the statements made by provocateurs like ”So if a man wears camouflage is he openly inviting people to shoot at him? [snip] This mindset that a woman's dress is indicative of her consent is so fucking asinine. No one EVER asks to be raped. No one invites it and no matter what someone wears it is NEVER OKAY to rape them!” have to be constantly challenged; I think we’re getting into some “dangerous ground”.

These A-holes would love nothing more than for some ill-thought remark to be made that could be interpreted as being a justification for rape. If they cannot “bait” any of the regular posters here to make such gaffes, they might well try to slip them into the discussion themselves – and then go running to the Google Blogger over-seers to demand that FRS is in violation of terms of service.

I’m just saying that this is a subject area with many potential “land mines”.

We amateurs should leave the the statement of the FRS's position on the subject to the professional (Pierce). He's already made the definative statement on the matter. (now he's stuck having to respond to those A-holes trying to discredit the FRS)

Freedom said...

Slwerner, well-said.

Anonymous said...

When statements like ”…guy wants sex and doesn't have a girlfriend it seems perfectly logical that he'll attempt to take it by force.”

***

Yeah, that's bologna. Just because a guy is poor that doesn't entitle him to rob somebody, although by this logic it would be.

That said, when feminists pull idiotic stunts like 'slut marches' that are doing far more than merely asserting their right to refuse sex. They are also asserting that they are entitled to behave any damned way they please, AND to have their self-destructive behavior universally condoned and approved of.

And they are also implying that we MUST believe rape accusations 100% of the time, even when the evidence is either non-existent or even heavily favors the accused.

Anonymous said...

Dehbashi, if a woman strips in that manner and we have no other information about what happened except a "he said/she said" rape claim, then there most assuredly would be reasonable doubt as to whether a rape occurred, and no sane D.A. would prosecute that case.

I hope it stays that way but I'm skeptical.

Jay Hammers said...

Rape is not about power, it is about sexual release.

I am so tired of people who don't understand how men and women tick claiming bullshit like "rape is about power".

Anonymous said...

Powerful men have no reason to rape! They're too busy drowning in willing pussy.

Only criminals commit such idiotic and pointless crimes.

Anonymous said...

"uuuuh...taking sex by force is illegal, too.

I don't think prostitution being legal or illegal would make much difference."

There aren't any cops dressing up as rape victims,though.

You should study criminology. Rapists and murderers case their victims like a robber cases a place he intends to rob. The reason why more liquor stores are robbed than banks these days is because banks have extremely high tech security and in certain places that have or guard money, armed federal agents work there, not so with liquor stores.

A high-profile man who rapes average women rather than pays for prostitution would be less likely to go to jail, because there is a good probability that the woman he pays for sex is a police officer and they KNOW it.

Clarence's argument holds water,logically.

"So if a man wears camouflage is he openly inviting people to shoot at him?
If someone DOES shoot at him was he "asking for it" because he was wearing something that some might consider to be "soldier-like"?

If a man wears a Tapout shirt is he inviting people to punch him in the face and wrestle him to the ground because that slogan is affiliated with organized cage fighting?
And is someone DOES drag him into an alley and beat him is it his fault?"

"Why is it that ANY OTHER form of violence towards people is not attributed to what someone wears but in the case of rape?"

What do you think would happen to a white man in a Klan robe and hood in Compton?


What do you think people would say about that man when it happened?

Thought so.

Your argument is ridiculous.


Yes, if a man is wearing U.S. army fatigues in Afghanistan, he is inviting people to shoot at him.

If he is dressed like a punk at a Misfits concert (or anywhere), he is signaling that he is "hardcore" and would be willing to brawl with others to prove it.

And if a woman is dressed like a slut around a rapist, she is signaling to the rapist that she is willing to have sex,or at least needlessly baiting the rapist to indulge his criminal appetites.

IF she is raped, it is the criminal's fault, and it is HORRIBLE each and every time a woman is raped, but if you don't think the way people dress encourages certain people to do certain things, put on that Klan hood and go stand on the corner in Compton and prove me wrong.

Anonymous said...

I think there are some ways of looking at rape to justify the claim that rape is about power (although not solely). For the victim there may be a sense of powerlessness, and I don't know if it is easy to parse the decision to rape because the rapist was feeling strong sexual urges from enjoying his own prowess. I don't think it is unrelated that rape has often featured as a part of warfare; even in peacetime there could be a hatred of women (or men) or a racial hatred or some other underlying and concomitant cause. Some men may even pride themselves on being good at raping.

Anonymous said...

I remember when "yes means yes" was a taunt against women as if to justify rape. IOW if no means no, it is becuase one person says not, ans that is that, but if one yes means yes...?

Also, women who dress provocatively or seductively have to admit that they are heightening the sexual tension. There is also a sense in which dressing provocatively can be done so as to insult or humiliate the people one is going to be around, which may receive a response, which would have been provoked. Think of cross-dressers getting beaten or lynched in Jamaica. I had a man teaching a women's studies course who claimed he and other men dressed up in prissy women clothes in order to undermine social conventions; the point is that one's manner of dress can be deliberately insulting and harmful by intention. A woman showing how lustrous and beautiful her body is to men whom she would not wish to have sex with is acting in a violent manner.

AlekNovy said...

@Christina

"""If it were just about the desire for sex, why overpower someone and take it against their will? """

For the same reason that a mugger points a gun at your head while asking for your wallet.

Can he go and earn that money and be given that money voluntarily by an employee? Sure.

Are you saying that people who mug don't REALLY need or want money but want the "psychological power of pointing a gun at some"?

Sure, some might. Heck, some might secretly get a thrill by doing so.

Truth is, most people who steal do so out of desperation, hunger, belonging to a disadvantaged group etc...

Anonymous said...

Woman: I should be able to stick my pussy all over your face and even hump your dick some times, but if you try to continue after I change my mind, then its rape.