Wednesday, March 23, 2011

Radical feminists want to convict men and boys of rape even if there was actual consent


Currently, rape law adheres to a contract law standard of consent, where consent may manifested in any way that it actually occurs. In matters of romance, people typically toss formalities to the winds and generally express consent in body language, smiles, nods, caresses, and in a thousand other ways that wouldn't be appropriate in a commercial setting. There are, in fact, an infinite variety of ways people signal consent. Many, perhaps most, couples establish routines where unspoken conduct cues responses in a willing a partner.

A law that recognizes that consent may be evidenced in whatever ways parties actually manifest it can’t possibly be unfair, right?

Well, wrong.  Criminal law professor and feminist Michele Alexandre wants to junk all of that and severely limit the way consent may be legally manifested. She insists that the contract theory of consent treats women’s bodies as goods and proposes to change criminal law so that all the non-verbal manifestations of assent are invalid to show legal consent. Specifically, “express consent entails verbal or written assent that leaves no doubt as to the victim’s agreement to the sexual interaction. . . .” (The other-worldly reference to "written assent" is a dead giveaway that this professor is operating in a different universe than the typical bedroom where real couples are getting it on.)

She would make the sex act a presumed crime whenever a woman cries rape. The burden would be on the defendant to prove “that express and present consent was explicitly obtained at the time of the actual sexual interaction, not before or after . . . .” Only if the defendant is able to establish “express, present, and uncontroverted consent to the sexual interaction at issue” does the burden shift to the prosecution to prove withdrawal of consent, and “withdrawal of consent can happen at any time during the sexual interaction.”  (The latter point about withdrawal is not objectionable under the contract law theory of consent.)

In this professor’s world, past sexual behavior –  those routines a couple has established over the course of months or years, that private and unspoken language they've developed – none of it may be cited as evidence of present consent. Sex that occurs as a result of such flawed consent is rape.

See M. Alexandre, ‘Girls Gone Wild’ and Rape Law: Revising the Contractual Concept of Consent & Ensuring an Unbiased Application of ‘Reasonable Doubt’ When the Victim is Non-Traditional, 17 American Univ. Journal of Gender, Social Policy & the Law 1, 41, 55-56 (2009).

Presumably, the jury would have to be instructed that even if they find there was consent -- a real, honest-to-goodness agreement to have sex -- if such consent wasn't manifested in the "correct," narrowly prescribed manner outlined here, then there was no legal consent. It was rape.

If the goal is to establish certainty about whether the woman consents to the sex act, there already exists a sure-fire way to insure that the male understands whether she consents: she can say "no."  Uttering "no" means there is no consent. Before or during the act -- "no" means "proceed no further." Yet, for unfathomable reasons, in the past few years there's been a movement to insist that uttering that two-letter word puts too much burden on the woman.

So what good would this law accomplish?  None. The proposed new law would force innocent men and boys to testify at trial, contrary to the Sixth Amendment's prohibition, because the sex act would be a presumed crime if a woman cried rape; the only way to rebut that presumption would be for the man or boy to testify.

Real rapists would do what they've always done: lie. Only now, they'd claim consent was obtained in the new, narrowly prescribed way even though it wasn't.

Women in divorce and custody battles would have a powerful new weapon in their arsenals to hold over their ex-husbands' heads.

Troubled college girls would have even more power to get attention or revenge.

Men and boys would be punished by ex-mates they've pissed off by having rape claims lodged against them because, even though there was actual consent, the guys failed to obtain consent in the new, correct manner.

And most couples in a healthy relationship would ignore the new law altogether.  But if the couple ignored the new law, only the male would do so at his peril.

35 comments:

Anonymous said...

You are misogynist for saying sex should not be a presumed crime when a woman cries rape. More rape apologism. You are purposefully obtuse. It's false equivalency.

Let's see, what other bullshit words do they use to try to make themselves sound intelligent?

Excellent post.

Novaseeker said...

This isn't about protecting women from rape (current rape law does that), but rather about using rape law to engineer changes in the typical heterosexual mating script.

A collection of essays edited by Jessica Valenti and Jaclyn Friedman entitled "Yes Means Yes: Visions of Female Sexual Power and a World Without Rape" is indicative of the mindset. The basic idea is that women need to be more sexually empowered, by which they mean that the most common mating script whereby the man pursues/initiates/escalates (which seems to be preferred by many/most women, at least much of the time) is one which disempowers women, and robs them of their sexual agency (by making it that of "responder" to male sexual agency rather than most often "initiator"). Therefore rape law should be rewritten to "force" couples to redo their own scripts, by either (1) continuing with the male initiation/escalation script but only with clearly verbalized consent at each step of escalation -- which I think they know most women will find distasteful -- or (2) switching to a female-led script to avoid legal jeopardy for the men involved. The latter is also touted as a way to eliminate rape, because if they are super-successful at re-writing the mating script for *everyone*, such that female-led sexual encounters become overwhelmingly the normal expectation for all sexual activity between men and women, rape will disappear ipso facto, because all sex will only be clearly taking place with the female's consent (and rape of males by females is impossible in the eyes of feminists).

So that's what they're about. They want to change the sex script to flip it to a female-led script, which will obviate the need for consent to be shown, because sex will only be seen as legitimate if it is female initiated, and all male-initiated sex will become so rare as to be presumptively rape.

It's a nefarious project, not least of which because it clearly violates the Constitution. More fundamentally, it twists rape law into a purpose beyond protecting women from actual rape, and into a tool for engineering a new mating script orthodoxy under penalty of law.

Archivist said...

It's a perversion of the very purpose of the criminal justice system, which is supposed to prevent harms by punishing and rehabilitating offenders. This proposal, and others like it that we're reported on here, won't prevent a single rape from occurring. This is intended to socially engineer private interactions in a way that progressives would find repugnant in any other context.

I have a better solution which I formerly thought was absurd: cameras in the bedroom. We already allow TSA agents to see our dicks at the airport, so why not? You want to make sure there's no rape? We have the technology to pretty much eliminate it. I know, I know, it's so far-fatched that it's humorous. But, you know, my guess is that a law mandating that sex be captured on digital "video" would put this blog right out of business. I know the feminists would like that.

AfOR said...

OTish

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1369160/Women-twice-likely-men-romantic-regrets.html


who woulda thunk it

AfOR said...

Actually, I think they are on to something.

No sex of any kind without a financial contract, since I am the one DEPOSITING the sperm, I think all men should become prostitutes, and charge say 20 bucks per deposit, up front...

Visa / MasterCard etc will be happy to supply the kit for a 2% transaction fee.

Once you buy my sperm, what you do with it is up to you, if you impregnate yourself with it, well, none of my business, our business contract is fulfilled and ended.

MWPeak said...

I remember a science fiction film in which men met with a woman and her lawyer who mediated as the couple negotiated, printed and signed a binding legal agreement for one night of sex.

And yet, I am sure even that would not prevent guys from being accused of rape.

E. Steven Berkimer said...

Nova,

So if women start to have to initiate, can men then turn around and state they weren't "enthusiastic" participants, or that they had too much to drink, and therefore couldn't consent? Might be an interesting turn of the current state. Something tells me that the women wouldn't care to be in the situation that men find themselves in now.

Archivist said...

"Might be an interesting turn of the current state. Something tells me that the women wouldn't care to be in the situation that men find themselves in now."

Right, Steve. Except women have no interest in upsetting the men-as-pursuers model, either. It's all nonsense peddled by some angry young women with a victim fetish.

Anonymous said...

Question for Archivist. Somebody posed this at David Futrelle's site.

A query for those who wish to respond:

A man and a woman are having consensual intercourse. In the middle of the act, one partner (it doesn't matter who) asks the other partner to stop. The other partner refuses to stop, and continues until finished. Has rape occurred?

Novaseeker said...

Yes it's a way of forcing the issue. Most women who are not ideologues like Valenti and her ilk are not generally upset with the typical heterosexual mating script, and in fact would be more than non-plussed, if not directly turned off, by a new script that mandated female initiation in most cases. It's a perspective shared by very few women, and almost of the ones who share it are dyed-in-the-wool radical feminists.

In the unlikely event that some state somewhere passed a legal regime like that one, I would guess that the same crowd would vociferously argue that male consent to female-initiated sex would be irrelevant, as women, ipso facto, cannot rape men. In other words, right back to the traditional theory of rape to prevent it from being applied to women in the context of a dominant female-led model. Perhaps something along the lines of "male consent can be legally and dispositively inferred for the entirety of any and all sexual acts between the parties by the presence at any time of a full or partial penile erection" or something like that.

Remember, this isn't about fairness, and it isn't about protecting women. It's about power.

Archivist said...

Anon: Yes, of course it is rape. Most states now agree with that.

(But I think if I were on the jury of the boy who was convicted of rape for delaying to withdraw -- and this is by the girl's admission -- for as little as FIVE seconds after she told him to stop, I would not have convicted him. The D.A. should have insisted that be handled differently. But, of course, the boy was black . . . .)

No more David Futrelle!

Anonymous said...

Nothing, including the current law, gets us any closer to determining guilt in he said/she said.

On the videos, she can still claim "he raped me, there was no video made". He can deny it.

I disagree on the FIVE second withdrawal. That's enough time to STOP unless the lad is a retard.

Sometimes I think this blog is an underground labyrinth with no way out.

bustybetty

Dehbashi said...

It keeps getting less and less surprising how the feminazis act that it's so predictable.

They really want to destroy civilization, don't they?

Axel said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Jason said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Mason said...

"express consent entails verbal or written assent that leaves no doubt as to the victim’s agreement to the sexual interaction"

Notice the word "victim". She doesn't realize it, but she just said that *even with written consent*, sex has a victim and an abuser. She's biasing herself before she even gets her foot out the door. You can't call someone a victim unless there's been a crime, and to do so preemptively is a sign of faulty thinking. Here, let me rewrite it for you, and see if you can see how wrong it reads:

"express consent entails verbal or written assent that leaves no doubt as to the murdered persons’s agreement to the sexual interaction"

See? In my example, I basically say that murder happened, no matter what else took place. In the same way, she's saying rape happened, no matter what kind of consent was given.

Use your heads, people, you are all smarter than this! :)

Archivist said...

Mason, of course.

She should go write for one of America's leading dailies because the inappropriate use of "victim" is the theme of dozens of our posts on this site.

Anonymous said...

"Yes, of course it is rape. Most states now agree with that."

But if the sexes were reversed, and the woman was on top, and didn't stop immediately, would it be considered rape?

What if a man claimed there was not “verbal or written assent that leaves no doubt as to the victim’s agreement to the sexual interaction”, would it be considered rape?

What about all of these sexual assault cases that are based on nothing but a claim of over-the-clothes touching? If a woman touches a man without his express prior consent, would that still be considered sexual assault?

Regardless of your opinion, of whether or not it should, the obvious reality is that it isn't. Regardless of what people, including feminists, say what they believe is ideally or morally wrong, in practice, the law only applies when the perpetrator is male and the victim is female.

If women faced an equal chance of going to prison for "sex that occurs as a result of such flawed consent", I'm sure Michele Alexandre would be singing a completely different tune.

Novaseeker said...

Mason –

It's not only that. It's that the definition she is using would literally reverse hundreds and hundreds of years of criminal procedure/constitutional law precedent in the common law countries to the effect that criminal activity must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in order to yield a conviction.

Essentially what she is asking for is a “rape exception” to this standard. If a woman claims rape, then the defendant must prove beyond a reasonable doubt, that consent was given – otherwise he will be convicted. This would simply turn rape law into even more of a power base for women than it is today, and frankly there can be no other way of interpreting that, because men could go to jail essentially just for being accused of rape if he cannot meet the high evidentiary standard she is proposing to exonerate himself. Placing that burden on a criminal defendant is obscene, and has nothing to do with protecting women, but everything to do with expanding their power at the expense of men.

The good news is that because this is so clearly unconstitutional, it should never be seriously considered as law. Unfortunately, however, precedent has already been set that areas of the law that impact interactions between men and women are, as a practical matter, not subject to the constitution – as we can see, for example, from some of the state enactments of VAWA and how these relate to family court procedures (which are also generally exempt from most constitutional rights). So it isn't that far fetched to think that this kind of idea that “the constitution doesn't count when it comes to laws impacting male/female interaction” would also be applied here. All they need is a bad-fact, hard-luck case to use as the pointy edge of their lobbying effort.

Archivist said...

"If a woman claims rape, then the defendant must prove beyond a reasonable doubt, that consent was given – otherwise he will be convicted."

I believe his burden under this and similiar burden shifting schemes would be by a prepronderance of the evidence. If he meets that burden, then the state has the burden to prove consent was withdrawn.

Archivist said...

P.S. Washington state already has a law where the burden is on the defendant to prove consent.

Remind me never to visit Washington state.

djwork said...

MWPeak said...
I remember a science fiction film in which men met with a woman and her lawyer who mediated as the couple negotiated, printed and signed a binding legal agreement for one night of sex.

the movie was Cherry 2000 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_2000

Anonymous said...

This is an expression of feminist hatred of males, whether or not they have committed any crime. And that is all it is.

Anonymous said...

Actual testimony in One of my false accusation cases.

"No means no, what part of no did you not understand."

20 minutes later upon cross examination:

"well miss, did you actually tell this man no"

Miss; " NO I did not, but he should have knew it."

Cross exam back to myself:
(prosecutor)
Did she at any time tell you no?

(no sir she did not)

The Unhinged One
wrote this.

ScareCrow said...

This goes far beyond a hatred of males.

This goes into an insane rage against reality.

The more I read on this blog, the more I realize that Dr. Rookh Kshatriya is right - there is definitely a puritanical loathing of life at work here.

Mark my words - if this got passed, women would finally start to speak up against feminism. They wouldn't get sex when they wanted it.

But - a law as ridiculous as this will never get passed.

Patrick said...

Dworkin is proud. All sex is now illegal unless done by code.

I can see how the trial goes now. She agrees with defendant that she said "let's fuck" buy she did NOT say "kiss me, pet my leg, gently kiss my nipples, then fondle them, then rub me my pussy, then eat it, and THEN fuck me".

Guilty on 7 charges of sexual assault!

Anonymous said...

Never underestimate the enemy.

Anonymous said...

It is a very serious perversion of a law enforcement community that has fostered and enabled the now "Culture of false Rape accusations" to get so rooted into American society.
The new "American gender-raunch community" has surely been "Empowered" by this perversion, but "Empowerment" by feeding off the blood of the innocent is never a sustainable recreation.

Uno Hu said...

What the gender feminists have not seemed to really internalize is that the most dangerous animal you will ever have to face is thoroughly enraged adult male human. How many men will "reserve the right of private action" when it becomes apparent that there is no chance of justice for them in the courts?

BryAnime said...

Next thing you know they're going to make you file a paper and get it approved by your lawyer before consensual sex can occur

Uno Hu said...

The whole idea is foolish and miasandric, but it can only be made to work if juries are constituted only of women and manginas. Talk about teaching people the principle of jury nullification!!

Anonymous said...

Why do they need this scheme? You're guilty until proven innocent, already.

Anonymous said...

A man and a woman are having consensual intercourse. In the middle of the act, one partner (it doesn't matter who) asks the other partner to stop. The other partner refuses to stop, and continues until finished. Has rape occurred?

Absolutely not. A man cannot rape his wife or gf.It would be insane to believe that people who may have had sex a hundred times that the 101st was rape. At most this would violate the rules of etiquette. Let me check with Emily Post

Anonymous said...

P.S. Washington state already has a law where the burden is on the defendant to prove consent


I find that hard to believe.You know that in 10% of alleged "rape"cases according to the FBI the female has never met the man she's accused. That's right, she just chooses some guy at random and says he raped her."The man in the white house on main st raped me" etc.

And why would a man even be a defendant based on some female's allegation? He can just say he doesn't know the female and advise the cops to have a psychiatrist examine her because she's mentally deranged.

Anonymous said...

Talk about teaching people the principle of jury nullification!!

Uno-that would not be nullification but merely a finding of fact.
Personally I believe that everyone except the disabled or aged should be required to serve as jurors with no exceptions for any reason.We need a real cross section of society on the jury from doctors to junkmen and not the stumblebum losers with nothing to do serving as it is today.
And the first 12 people chosen at random are the jurors with no challanges by the DA or defence except for a very extraordinary reason.