Tuesday, March 15, 2011
College Woman Lies About Rape, and it "Pained" Prosecutor to Charge Her Because She's Only 19
Yet another alleged college rape turns out to be a lie. This time at Goshen College, a small Mennonite college in Goshen, Indiana. This case contains many of the elements of false rape claims that we see repeated over and over.
On January 18, 2011, a news reporter at TV station Fox 28 came on the air and did what television news reporters generally do with unsubstantiated reports of rapes by college women that haven't been investigated yet: she made it sound as if a rape had occurred, and she became little more than a parrot for the police. Fox 28's report about the alleged rape started with these words: "The Police say a Goshen college student was sexually assaulted overnight." See the video here.
The alleged victim told police she had been sexually assaulted by a white man while she was heading to her car on campus. The man supposedly forced her to drive him to a second location where the sexual assault took place. See http://www.fox28.com/Global/story.asp?S=14248497.
In fact, it wasn't true. None of it. And we could have predicted that it wasn't true because stranger rape on college campuses is virtually unheard of.
We now know the woman's name is Jessica DeLa Vega. She is 19-years-old (the prime age for rape prevaricators). It turns out that DeLa Vega was actually at a party in a neighboring county at the time the rape supposedly occurred, according to Elkhart County Prosecutor Curtis T. Hill Jr.
The accusation led to increased police and security on Goshen College campus, and a rise in fear in the students. Could this rape hysteria have been caused by the news media rushing to judgment and reporting a teenager's unsubstantiated allegation as a fact before the police had even investigated it?
Police expended approximately 200 man hours investigating the alleged rape. Prosecutor Hill said obstruction of justice charges would be filed against DeLa Vega. But he went out of his way to note that it pained him to file charges against a 19 year old.
Query: has prosecutor Hill ever uttered those words about a 19-year-old suspected male rapist? Or, for that matter, a 19-year-old male accused of any crime? My guess is "no."
Prosecutor Hill also said this news is a "relief."
Read that again, and let it sink in. It is a "relief" that a young college woman told a lie that might have sent a man away to prison for decades?
To his credit, at least Hill is charging her. Such is the era we find ourselves stranded in that we are grateful when a prosecutor actually does his job and charges a woman for lying about rape.
Prosecutor Hill said DeLa Vega needs to be charged because he wants to send a message. “For almost two months now, this community has been under siege with apprehension over the allegation of the abduction and rape of a young college co-ed with the associated anxiety and fear that this suspect was still at large and possibly searching for a new victim,” said Hill. “Upon our review of the Goshen Police Department’s determination that the report was false, our first responsibility is to inform the public to alleviate any immediate concerns that we have a predator lurking in our community related to this incident.”
DeLa Vega faces 18 months in jail. Goshen College's director of public affairs said that DeLa Vega is no longer an enrolled student.
One news outlet, MNDU, reported on the latest development by noting that "officers now say the victim fabricated the story." Newsflash: she's not "the victim" if she fabricated her victimization.
(If you want to read about a similar rush to judgment concerning a college rape lie on a much grander scale, read about the Hofstra false rape claim. But trigger warning: it will get your blood boiling.)
In sum, this little story contains many of the elements we report on in this blog on a daily basis: An unsubstantiated rape claim is given instant credibility and is permitted to cause hysteria even though it hasn't even been investigated yet; a young woman apparently lied to cover up the truth about what she was doing; a prosecutor is reluctant to charge a criminal for committing a crime, even though he would have no such reluctance if the accused were a same-age male accused of sexual assault; and news outlets refer to the rape liar as the "victim."
Just another day in our false rape society.
Sources:
http://www.southbendtribune.com/news/sbt-20110315sbtmichb-03-04-20110315,0,2611918.story
http://www.fox28.com/Global/story.asp?S=14248497
http://www.wndu.com/hometop/headlines/Goshen_College_student_fabricates_rape_117972639.html?storySection=comments
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40 comments:
The prosecutor has to almost apologize for bringing charges here. That's your damn JOB, sir.
What's the world coming to that a girl can't tell a rape lie so she can party without False Rape Society getting all bent out of shape over it?
I have only watched the video, but it seems it uses words like alleged, and she said, and the police said. Seems far more even-handed than the Hofstra crap.
Furthermore, despite the prosecutors whining, I doubt he even remotely cares about the girl. They have complete discretion.
Finally, the college VP mentions it's the first such crime in 9 years (or more). At least he didn't put forward any of the 1 in 4 lies.
I think FRS is having some sort of effect (I hope!).
Zarko, your point about the one-in-four is well taken.
The first one in nine years -- and it turns out to be a lie!
I agree that the news report certainly lacks the hysteria that marked Hofstra, but the entire report is tainted by the opening line. What more does the average viewer need than to hear than "police say" that a rape or sexual assault occurred? "POLICE" say? The unnamed accuser is the one who said it. But the average viewer believes that since it is the job of police to investigate crimes, and since police have no interest in lying about a thing like this, well, it must have happened. Period. End of story. The viewer was not told that the investigation had not even occurred yet when police "said" a sexual assault had occurred.
Either the news team misconstrued what police really said, or the police actually told reporters that a sexual assault occurred.
How about reporting it like this: "A college woman told police she was raped over night, but there is no other evidence to support the claim, and the police have not looked into it yet."
Not good for ratings, is it? Ah! THAT'S the problem.
Yrp yrp. The poor woman. The last person we should feel sorry for is the man, who racked up a few thousand bucks at minimum in legal consultation fees getting prepared for an impending court case (unless he was going to opt for public attorney).
Archivist - "Either the news team misconstrued what police really said, or the police actually told reporters that a sexual assault occurred."
I tend to suspect it's a case of "a little bit from column A, and a little bit from column B" sort of situation.
It seems to me that most PD's have a specific PR officer who is the one who deals with the press, and that officer is almost always a feminist of one stripe or another (left-wing gender-feminist or right-wing conservative gyno-worshiping feminist). Thus, they are inclined to speak of allegation by women as if they are "certainly" true.
Then, you add on top of that the fact that most journalists aren't exactly the "brightest of bulbs" while also being amongst the most arrogant of people, and you end up with situations where the police PR officer suggests that the crime has occurred, and the dim-witted reporters retell it as if they where given some sort of insider information that the police knew for sure that the crime was real.
on a different note, I find the prosecutors statement quite interesting. He IS charging her (likely with only a misdemeanor, but a charge never-the-less), ans thus committing to the time and expense to follow through. This would suggest that he is at least sincere in wishing to send a message by doing so.
Yet, he appears apologetic about it, which seems a ridiculous "disconnect" between doing his job, sending the appropriate message, and yet wishing he didn't have to.
To me (and this, once again, is a matter of my own personal speculation) it seems as though he is only appearing apologetic so as to deflect the flack he expects he might otherwise get for daring to charge and prosecute a young women for something that women have come to expect to be able to get away with doing at their whim.
Having the "ability" to make false claims is a powerful weapon for women to use against men in various situations, so if the use of such a weapon begins to be considered by authorities for the crime that it is, it represents a serious challenge to the power women have secured for their gender over men.
I would guess that any prosecutor who's spend a significant time on the job has encountered activist groups who challenge them as to their handling of cases which involve that groups constituents. And, this is especially true of womens issues advocate groups.
Any DA who's decline to prosecute a dubious rape charges has, no doubt, gotten a call from some women's advocacy group "demanding" and explanation as to why that decision was made. Thus, I can only imagine that a prosecutor who finds himself in a position to charge a woman for an FRA, is going to suspect that such groups are going to very unhappy with him. Thus, I see it as likely being a preemptive to apologize (more to them than to the women being charged) for choosing to prosecute.
Again, just my own interpretation of what might be at play in an otherwise seemingly incoherent circumstance.
slw, excellent, and I agree.
Do you agree with this: most of the time, when cops tell the media how many man-hours they spent investigating a rape that turned out to be a lie, the intent is to signal to the sexual grievence industry/women's groups "don't blame us if we aren't bringing more 'rapists' to trial -- this is what we have to work with."
Archivist - "Do you agree with this: most of the time, when cops tell the media how many man-hours they spent investigating a rape that turned out to be a lie, the intent is to signal..."
Yes, I do.
I believe you have offered a keen insight here. Given the fairly open hostility that LE faces front he SGI, it would almost be expected that they would be constantly engaged in CYA efforts.
I was just about to deconstruct one of the posted comments from the last of the linked articles, which, while standing against the FRA, still demonstrates the disconnect those sympathetic to the SGI have regarding both the issues of police handling of rape allegations, an the rape/FRA issue, in general. (I'll try to post that shortly).
[Dang! Blogger just "ate" my post. I'll try breaking it into two parts]
[1 of 2]
In looking over the posted comments to the story that revealed the FRA (http://www.wndu.com/hometop/headlines/Goshen_College_student_fabricates_rape_117972639.html?storySection=comments), while the comments were, as has become the norm, uniformly against the FRA and the women who made it, there was on comment that stood out to me as needing more scrutiny. It is this one:
Tiredofit:
“She deserves more than three years in prison--and fines more than $250K, for three reasons: 1. Women who are raped have enough problems getting family members, police, the media and the general public to believe them without these publicity-seeking glory hounds who make false rape allegations adding to the doubt. False allegations like this are rare compared to actual rapes, but oh-so damaging. 2. She hurt the reputation of Goshen College, who had to contend with allegations that the campus is not safe and that they do not protect their female students. This is an outrage. 3. She wasted the time and efforts of the police force, taking their attention away from solving other crimes, including actual rapes, and costing the taxpayers money.”
While this commenter is clearly opposed to the FRA, and the women who made it, it still show a sunning amount of cognitive dissonance.
[2 of 2]
First, despite the obvious fact that the PD in response to a woman’s claim immediately launched into an all-out effort to warn the public and to find the perpetrator, she (I believe it to be a woman commenting) still suggests that women making claims of rape have a hard time getting police to believe them. Apparently this one instance of the police not only fully believing a woman’s lies, but also making the case “priority one” just isn’t enough for this poster.
Secondly, while she acknowledges the damages of FRA’s she falls in line with the SGI canard of their rarity, and seems only concern for the harms potentially done to other rape victims, the police, the college, and the taxpayers; but not to men, in general, nor to any individuals who might have been implicated.
She also seems not to recognize that while the SGI continues to put out their claims about the epidemic of rape on campuses, she is directly contradicting that misguided belief in her noting that Goshen College does protect and keep it’s female students safe.
I realize that I’ve got off on a bit of an tangent here, but I just struck me that, even though people are beginning to wake up to the reality of FRA’s, they are still seriously misguided about the real underlying facts of the issue. They can post in protest of FRA’s, and yet still manage to perpetuate untruths about them.
There is still work to be done in getting the true message out there, obviously.
[Blogger must be hungry today - retrying 2 of 2]
First, despite the obvious fact that the PD in response to a woman’s claim immediately launched into an all-out effort to warn the public and to find the perpetrator, she (I believe it to be a woman commenting) still suggests that women making claims of rape have a hard time getting police to believe them. Apparently this one instance of the police not only fully believing a woman’s lies, but also making the case “priority one” just isn’t enough for this poster.
Secondly, while she acknowledges the damages of FRA’s she falls in line with the SGI canard of their rarity, and seems only concern for the harms potentially done to other rape victims, the police, the college, and the taxpayers; but not to men, in general, nor to any individuals who might have been implicated.
She also seems not to recognize that while the SGI continues to put out their claims about the epidemic of rape on campuses, she is directly contradicting that misguided belief in her noting that Goshen College does protect and keep it’s female students safe.
I realize that I’ve got off on a bit of an tangent here, but I just struck me that, even though people are beginning to wake up to the reality of FRA’s, they are still seriously misguided about the real underlying facts of the issue. They can post in protest of FRA’s, and yet still manage to perpetuate untruths about them.
There is still work to be done in getting the true message out there, obviously.
Things are always more complicated than they seem - I do not know this girl, but I go to the same College that she does. As a rape survivor myself, I find these postings and this blog entry a disgrace "in my name." I agree the lying, especially about something this serious, is far from okay; but I have many more questions left unanswered. First, how is it that a girl could be in the hospital, AND have police investigating something this seriously if there hadn't been ANY evidence to work from in the first place? (Maybe I am naive in thinking that the police would do work in the beginning to make sure that there was at least some substantiating evidence). Plus, all we know is that a rape "didn't happen" at that time and place - it could be a million other things (yes, including a pure fabrication) - it could be that this situation happened a while ago, but she could not find the courage to say anything before. It could be that a friend of hers was attacked by this man and couldn't come forward for whatever reason, and so Jessica did so on her behalf. Again, this is not saying that it is okay to lie - I am just saying that we don't have any information except from the same media that you all are ripping apart in the first place - should we use that as a credible source when they aren't really saying much of anything at all?
I do not think it is helpful for anyone to bring more extreme negativity into this situation. Though lying like this (if that is what truly happened) is not in any way okay, this is a 19 year old girl - that doesn't excuse it, but my God, you are all tearing this woman apart when you know nothing about her. You don't know any details about the actual situation or what is going on inside of her at this moment. I hope that at least some of you who are spending your time on here can find the consciousness to become more compassionate (that doesn't mean excusing behaviors that are not acceptable) - again, I say this as a woman who has experienced and healed from rape herself. I do not hold any bad feelings towards Jessica, even if she did just blatantly lie. There are always complexities to the things that we do (which again doesn't excuse them, but makes them at least somewhat understandable)and I do hope that she can find the healing she needs to get to a better place within herself and with her community.
Beyond that, I hope that people do not take this "false rape accusation" to mean that these things "don't happen." It is easy to pretend (especially if you are a male - not to say that males are never victims, but they live a different reality than women in this world). I know for a fact that this is NOT the first incident in 9 years that a rape has occurred on campus or with a current student at Goshen College - women are afraid to come forward, or a sexual assault is silenced by the college so the public will not hear of it. We should not live in fear, but rape and sexual assault are a reality of life today, as sad as that is. A "false rape claim" does not change that reality.
Again, I hope that people can move to a better place that looks for reconciliation rather than retribution - women are easy targets for public humiliations, and it saddens me to see such intelligent people participating in something that counter productive. What about spending time and energy on education for all people - looking at healthy sexual relationships, respect, holistic relationships in general - how about giving time to people who are in need and unhappy, for whatever reason. If we were all taking care of each other like we should, do you really think things like rape, or even false accusations of rape would be happening?
Plus, all we know is that a rape "didn't happen" at that time and place - it could be a million other things (yes, including a pure fabrication) - it could be that this situation happened a while ago, but she could not find the courage to say anything before. It could be that a friend of hers was attacked by this man and couldn't come forward for whatever reason, and so Jessica did so on her behalf. Again, this is not saying that it is okay to lie - I am just saying that we don't have any information except from the same media that you all are ripping apart in the first place - should we use that as a credible source when they aren't really saying much of anything at all?
***
Wow. Just... wow.
So you think that if you were raped 5 years ago, it's okay to make up a story about being raped today? Or that if your friend was abused that it's okay to say that you were abused?
As spineless and pro-liar our legal system is, it does (technically) require you to be sure that what you say to the police has some relationship to reality, no matter how tenuous.
Yes, no matter how "negative" at may be for us to point this out, it is a vile crime to make up a story about being raped, no matter what fantasies your fellow women concoct as an excuse.
Really, the disgrace is idiots like you enabling false rape accusations, not "negative" people like us who are talking about it.
While I understand your frustration if I was misunderstood:
"So you think that if you were raped 5 years ago, it's okay to make up a story about being raped today? Or that if your friend was abused that it's okay to say that you were abused?"
I feel as though this is an unfounded comment though - I said numerous times in my post that is is NOT okay to lie, even within the piece quoted:
"I agree the lying, especially about something this serious, is far from okay"
"Again, this is not saying that it is okay to lie"
I am sorry if there were still some lingering questions as to my ideas on the act of falsely accusing someone. Let me state it clearly:
It is not okay to falsely accuse someone of anything.
My comment about being negative is not to attack anyone, but to simply point out that I think we could all use our energy in better ways. I might be able to better explain myself this way:
I am a survivor of rape. I do not hate my rapist. I do not even consider him an "evil person." He is a man who made a very terrible choice that changed my life is some very difficult ways that I had no choice about. But one action does not make a person - so while I do NOT under any circumstances think it was okay for him to rape me, or think that rape is ever okay, nor do I think that there is an excuse for violating someone like that. All I am saying is that it is complicated. So, yes, people must be responsible for their lives and their choices, we all are made up of complex experiences and learnings that have created us as who we are today - good and bad. We are too multifaceted to be placed into neat boxes where this girl is "terrible" - it is more complicated than that.
Every person has done wrong in life. Some more detrimental than others - but most of us are lucky enough not to have it splashed across the news without the chance to explain, apologize, defend, anything. How would that feel? Our most shameful, terrible, worst moments - where we've been horrible people (however small or big that has manifested itself) - asking for compassion and understanding doesn't mean that we are exempt from the reality that we still have hurt other people and need to take responsibility. No. It means that we wish for the opportunity to be reconciled - a desire I feel like all, if not at least, most of us have.
I am saddened that we spend time calling one another "idiots" instead of trying to focus our energy trying to work for a community that is one where things like rape or false rape accusations don't happen in the first place. Where forgiveness and reconciliation is the justice system we use - one which works for the restoration of all involved. This again, does NOT mean that people are free to just do what ever they want without consequence - I am just saying that maybe the way we do "justice" has been unjust for long enough - that we need to look for new ways of being and relating to one another if we truly want things to change.
Of course I don't want to see anyone imprisoned who is innocent - I would never wish that on anyone. I also wouldn't wish for anyone to be hated or at least treated with hate and violent words by loved ones, let alone by complete strangers. Again, everything is too complicated to look at things so either/or - though I know we are used to binaries in this society.
And that is life - complicated - my life was changed forever in a traumatic way. It is something I've had to come to terms with, heal from, and move on and beyond. Life is full of multiplicity and if we can't look at each other with that kind of understanding, I am afraid all is lost. If we loose our ability to see one another with compassion - again that does NOT mean that people should not have to take responsibility for their actions - but it does mean that we find more creative, more holistic ways of solving the problems we encounter. I don't have a perfect answer - and I realize that what I ask is a far more tall order than relying on the route of the blame game that has a polarized, black and white ideology to life. It is not easy to look at someone who has wronged you, or others, and say "I do not agree with what you did, but I want to help you so that next time, your decision will be a better one. I forgive you and want to move forward."
I do not claim to know who any of you are - I am just saddened that at least on the surface, a lot of generalizing and dehumanizing comments are made about people - that sweeping assumptions are stated without consideration of the complexity of who we are and why we do the things we do.
I am not asking anyone to excuse anyone's behavior that has falsely accused anyone of anything, especially something as dire as sexual assault; I am asking that we try to learn to act and speak in ways that are positively searching and working for wholeness - wholeness for those who have been hurt by being falsely accused, for those who have been raped, like myself, those who have for whatever reason falsely accused others, and for all of us to find better and better ways to relate and communicate with one another.
I welcome any responses.
I guess just lastly to ensure clarity:
I do not believe I am "enabling false rape accusations" - far from it - my point is that I think our focus can be so far off from what should be considered important and vital. It does nothing to help a situation to create more hate and negativity - that doesn't mean we can't be mad or frustrated or even outraged at injustice - it just means that the way we express it should be something that is more lifegiving and productive than throwing insults around at people we do not even know - even this girl.
Meg, all we have to go by is what's written in the story. It doesn't advance intelligent discourse of these issues to manufacture excuses for this woman out of whole cloth.
Again, this is why I clearly said in my post that:
"asking for compassion and understanding doesn't mean that we are exempt from the reality that we still have hurt other people and need to take responsibility."
"This again, does NOT mean that people are free to just do what ever they want without consequence"
"I am not asking anyone to excuse anyone's behavior that has falsely accused anyone of anything"
I think being able to look at this, or any other issue or person, in a multidimensional way is exactly what intelligent discourse is about. If people can have discussions, and yes disagree, without relying on scapegoating or cheap personal digs, that is when things are actually be constructive.
Again, I never said that it was okay to lie, or that behavior is "excused" by the fact that things are complex.
I did say that the way we go about dealing with these things may not really be helping - has much changed? I think not. Does that mean maybe its about time we create new ways of engaging with issues and how we see justice? I think so. If we are serious about wanting to keep any kind of false accusations from happening, to keep rape from happening; working and thinking within the systems of binaries is not going to work. An ethic of violent rhetoric and quick judgments is not going to work.
"I did say that the way we go about dealing with these things may not really be helping - has much changed? I think not."
Yes, things have changed, a lot. Innocent men and boys are at much greater risk than any time in history of being charged for rape due to the fact that the feminist driven sexual grievance industry dominates the public discourse of these issues.
Every person has done wrong in life. Some more detrimental than others - but most of us are lucky enough not to have it splashed across the news without the chance to explain, apologize, defend, anything. How would that feel?
****
How would it feel to be splashed across the news without the chance to explain, apologize, defend, anything... for something you didn't do?
For the falsely accused this isn't a hypothetical, but something we live with every day. If you want to sympathize with someone then sympathize with the innocent, not the guilty.
And I am sorry to hear that you were raped, and I can understand why you wouldn't want to allow yourself to be consumed by hatred for your rapist -- that is a very laudible stance, and far healthier than becoming a victim feminist and going on cable TV in support of nifong (or whatever).
But our society will never change until we focus our "negative energy" against the terrible crime of false rape accusations.
Anon at 10:48: Wow! Brilliant!
Mag.G.(?) - ”First, how is it that a girl could be in the hospital, AND have police investigating something this seriously if there hadn't been ANY evidence to work from in the first place? (Maybe I am naive in thinking that the police would do work in the beginning to make sure that there was at least some substantiating evidence).”
She wasn’t in the hospital for anything other than possibly the SANE exam. I don’t know where you got this information. It doesn’t seem to be in any of the linked articles, nor in the earlier article referenced within them. Could in be just a case of “rumors running wild” around your campus?
And, of course police begin investigations without having evidence first. They are looking for that evidence. I’d think that this should be self-evident.
”Plus, all we know is that a rape "didn't happen" at that time and place - it could be a million other things (yes, including a pure fabrication)”
Okay, this is exactly why one of my pet peeves related the FRA issue is the no-disclosure of the motivations of the women involved.
As we see here, it leads to speculations about the women who make them being some how “deeply troubled” and/or doing so as a cry for help.
Anyone who’s been paying attention to the stories covered here is certainly well aware of the propensity of women to use FRA’s for an ALIBI. Here, it turns out the women was miles away, at a party.
While it cannot be entirely dismissed that her lie had it’s genesis in some other prior event in her life, it simply makes much, much, much more sense that she felt she needed to hide the fact that she’d been at that party (without exaggeration, we’ve probably seen literally 100 variations on this basic theme in FRA’s covered on this site). It’s also a good bet that she had a boyfriend, who didn’t know she’d gone the party, and likely “hooked up” with another man while there (again, we see this basic scenario over and over).
Mag.G. is most likely “projecting” her own perspective onto this recent FRA, because, absent more complete information – especially the motivation for the FRA (which is apparently know, but will not be discussed*) – it leaves the door open for people to insert their own pre-conceived notions and biases to try to justify and explain the FRA.
*”Hill says she has now confirmed the attack did not occur... and he would not discuss her motivation before the case heads to court.” (http://www.fox28.com/Global/story.asp?S=14248497)
In reference to:
"I did say that the way we go about dealing with these things may not really be helping - has much changed? I think not."
Yes, things have changed, a lot. Innocent men and boys are at much greater risk than any time in history of being charged for rape due to the fact that the feminist driven sexual grievance industry dominates the public discourse of these issues. "
I am talking about that as well when I say that no much has changed - as in not much has changed for the BETTER.
I have to disagree that "feminist driven sexual grievance industry dominates the public discourse of these issues" - though there are the situations where men and boys are falsely accused of sexual assault. There are lots of other cases alongside those falsely accused where women and girls have not been believed - and at continued risk for abuse, or have internalized more trauma because of others disbelief. I am not trying to pit one against the other - I am saying that I want things to move to a better place for ALL people. That includes men. I don't think that these issues have to be at such odds - aren't both those who are working to keep false accusations at bay, and those working to end rape and sexual violence BOTH working against injustice?
Why does it have to be this either or thing? I believe that working for equality and justice for all people is exactly what feminism is about (though I know that the more publicized idea of a feminist is the man-hating, irrational woman - that is not really who most feminists are). We are all entitled to our opinions, I just don't see how it is helping this cause to participate in the kind of verbal banter that only breaks others down, rather than trying to come up with real solutions that don't have to do with scapegoating or hate.
"There are lots of other cases alongside those falsely accused where women and girls have not been believed . . . ."
All due respect, the norm is to believe every rape claim without question. We follow this issue very closely here. I wish it weren't so, but that's the way it is.
Mag.G. - ”I don't think that these issues have to be at such odds - aren't both those who are working to keep false accusations at bay, and those working to end rape and sexual violence BOTH working against injustice?”
Since you’re new around here, I suppose you can be cut some “slack” for not knowing that Pierce has written about this very idea – extensively.
But…
Then there’s this:
”I just don't see how it is helping this cause to participate in the kind of verbal banter that only breaks others down, rather than trying to come up with real solutions that don't have to do with scapegoating or hate.”
How is exposing the issue of FRA’s, and the very real and lasting harms done by them “breaking others down”, “scapegoating”, or even “hate”?
Please do explain that.
Some of those “real solutions” have been discussed at length here. On area regards legal reforms that would allow for those making FRA’s to be punished more meaningfully, and in line with the nature of their crimes – including the idea of a “sliding scale” which would allow lesser punishment when lesser harms are inflicted.
Others include a return to basic legal protections for men and boys accused. Unless and until there is some real evidence developed, their names should not be released to be drug through the mud in the press. Police should not make arrests until they have evidence to support doing so (the vast majority of reported rapes are of the “he said/she said” variety, wherein there is no immediate danger to any others).
And how about the long-standing tradition of “innocent until proven guilty”? Shouldn’t that apply equally to men accused of rape? That’s another “ideal” expressed over and over on this forum.
But, Mag.G., you know what isn’t a “real solution”? Expecting us to just shut up and go away because it might take some small portion of the attention away from actual rape. That will simply allow the problems of FRA’s to go on unaddressed and unabated.
Another thing which might help would be for women like you, who’ve been actual victims, to consider that most of these women making FRA’s are only doing so for selfish reasons (revenge, alibi, attention, and money being the main reasons). While you may be inclined to try to understand them as possible victims (imagining that they are much like you), you should also consider that they are, in reality, simply taking advantage of you – and every other women who’s been raped – co-opting your pain and suffering so as to get what they want. This women who you reflexively sought to “defend/explain” might as well have walked up to you and spit in your face.
That's right, SLW. We have a lot of readers to this blog who've been falsely accused, and many of them now say they never believe a woman when she cries rape because of their experience. Police officers are at great risk of false claims, and many of them are skeptical.
Mag needs to read our blog for a couple of weeks before she starts spreading her opinions around. She'll see that in false rape case after false rape case, judges bemoan the harm done to ACTUAL RAPE VICTIMS by the rape liars. Every false claim diminishes the integrity of every legitimate claim.
All due respect to you, Mag, but if you want to debate here, you really have to know that we study these things closely, and I am way too busy to provide a remedial False Rape 101 course for every new feminist who pops in, just so she can get up to speed.
You probably think your comments are epiphanies, but they've been dealt with and dismissed in a thousand different ways on this blog.
You would do well to spend a couple of weeks reading this blog and educating yourself before trying to post here again
In response to the last few comments:
I did not claim to know exactly how you all feel, or why, and it is true, I am not fully versed in this blog, but I did take the time to read through many things before commenting - it would have been irresponsible not to.
I could say the same thing about many of the responses to my comments. I am not a random new feminist who is lashing out without education or understanding.
I have never said that false rape accusations don't happen, or that they are not serious situations of injustice. I believe it is something that needs attention - so the claim that I want you all to "shut up and go away" I think is too reactionary to hold much weight.
I think anyone who has been falsely accused deserves advocacy and attention - false accusations are a problem, and I have not denied that. All I have been saying is that possibly SOME of the ways people have responded to this and similar stories may not be the most constructive use of time and energy. Writing here is to engage in discussion, not to shut it down. I wouldn't have kept responding if I didn't want to have honest conversation about this - it feels like the fact that I am bringing in a possibly different perspective and criticism it is automatically assumed that I am against everything you all are working for and believe in - or that I just don't know what I am talking about. This I do not think is true - and if I have come off like that, I will apologize for poor communication. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and feelings - I am not trying to threaten or take away anything from anyone. I do not think that people shouldn't get upset or angry or be frustrated - especially those who have been personally affected by being falsely accused. I do think that positive solutions - in terms of transforming the negative attention and energy into something more productive like:
"Others include a return to basic legal protections for men and boys accused. Unless and until there is some real evidence developed, their names should not be released to be drug through the mud in the press. Police should not make arrests until they have evidence to support doing so (the vast majority of reported rapes are of the “he said/she said” variety, wherein there is no immediate danger to any others)."
I agree that protection needs to be given to people - and it is not okay to drag people through the mud - but that is exactly how this situation has been dealt with. AGAIN this is NOT to say that it is okay for someone to lie or falsely accuse anyone else. But just to point out that dehumanizing and berating someone does not help anyone's cause.
As to the comment:
"Another thing which might help would be for women like you, who’ve been actual victims, to consider that most of these women making FRA’s are only doing so for selfish reasons (revenge, alibi, attention, and money being the main reasons). While you may be inclined to try to understand them as possible victims (imagining that they are much like you), you should also consider that they are, in reality, simply taking advantage of you – and every other women who’s been raped – co-opting your pain and suffering so as to get what they want. This women who you reflexively sought to “defend/explain” might as well have walked up to you and spit in your face."
I do not speak for all survivors, nor would I claim to. But I feel as though this comment assumes how I should feel about a situation that you might have not experienced - and even if you have - just like I would not try to force anyone into thinking/feeling differently, I do not appreciate being told I should feel a certain way. It feels as though some of THESE responses and comments have been co-opting my pain and trauma to further your cause in a way that I would not approve. Having said that - I do understand what you are saying. I agree that false claims do really negative things not only for the integrity of real rape claims and prosecution, and of course really affect those falsely accused in horrendous ways. I have never said anything different. Again, what I am saying is that maybe we should move to a more dimensional way of looking at ALL people and ALL issues and refocusing ourselves to something that doesn't involve rash generalizations about others. This again does NOT mean that mean that we can't analyze situations and point out injustice - it just means that maybe we should work extra hard to do it with integrity and understanding.
". . . we should work extra hard to do it with integrity and understanding."
We already do that.
Next?
". . . it feels like the fact that I am bringing in a possibly different perspective and criticism it is automatically assumed that I am against everything you all are working for . . . ."
That's the problem. I don't think anyone understands exactly what you want us to do. We point out injustices, and yet somehow, what we're doing is wrong in your eyes."
Mag is saying that we're negative, and that we "dehumanize people."
But there really is no way to describe false rape accusers in an honest way without being extremely negative. They are very evil people, and there is no nice way to approach the subject of dealing with them.
Can you imagine an MRA saying, "You know, I am NOT saying that rape is okay. It's not! But to be so negative in how you discuss these rapists -- to dehumanize them -- isn't the most constructive way to expend your energy."
That would be silly, wouldn't it? Similarly, it is silly to suggest that we should be more positive in how we discuss false rape accusers.
I don't think that the Sonny Elliot approach to men's rights would be particularly effective...
"Again, what I am saying is that maybe we should move to a more dimensional way of looking at ALL people and ALL issues and refocusing ourselves to something that doesn't involve rash generalizations about others."
What exactly does this mean? And are we rashly generalizing false accusers? In what way?
Wow!
"Can you imagine an MRA saying, "You know, I am NOT saying that rape is okay. It's not! But to be so negative in how you discuss these rapists -- to dehumanize them -- isn't the most constructive way to expend your energy."
That would be silly, wouldn't it? Similarly, it is silly to suggest that we should be more positive in how we discuss false rape accusers."
Actually that is exactly what I am saying. As stated before, I am a rape survivor and I refuse to dehumanize the man who raped me. It is not okay that he raped me - but he is more than one choice, no matter how terrible that one choice may have been. Same goes for someone who has falsely accused someone of rape - they made a terrible decision, but they are not "evil." When we consider a person in a one-dimensional way, only looking at one aspect (no matter how glaring a fault), we dehumanize them.
When I say rashly generalizing false accusers I mean just that. No person is exactly alike - and unless you know this woman well, the conclusions you draw are assumptions. Some may be true, some may be not. But that's the point - making a blanket judgment on "all accusers" is a generalization. One that I don't think is productive or helpful.
Being positive in how we respond to situations isn't saying that we become mats that let people walk all over us - it doesn't mean that we turn into spineless people who don't speak up for injustice. It DOES mean that we take into account the fullness of every human being - no matter what they have done in their lives - and work to make things better. You cannot help someone by tearing them apart - by dehumanizing them, calling them "evil." If we are truly going to rid this world of injustice, it has to start internally and with the way we interact in conflict. Telling me that I am unintelligent and uneducated has nothing to do with my arguments - I am more than happy to engage in discussion about my opinions; which I have made every effort to state clearly and with respect - because I respect all of you, even though I don't know you, because we are all fellow human beings trying to figure things out. I hope you can do the same for me.
The reason that I have been writing is because I want to have honest constructive conversation. I want to understand where you are coming from and have you understand where I am coming from. That doesn't mean that we change each others minds necessarily, but there is always opportunity to learn from one another. Pointing out injustice in a constructive way is one thing, making comments about a person none of us know anything about - other than the fact that she is being prosecuted for a false rape report - is another. Making generalizations about a whole group of people without knowing them isn't helpful. Creating a rhetoric and environment of hate isn't helping change the situation of men or women either. Think about all the time that we've spent going back and forth - people calling me an idiot and throwing back jabs at my education and awareness; where could have we refocused the conversation to? What could we have found out with all of that time and energy? What could we have learned? How could we have helped someone who was in need - for instance someone who is hurting because they have been falsely accused? It doesn't help anyone to be hateful - hence why any psychologist and therapist will tell you; it is not a healthy thing for any victim to hate their perpetrator - it distracts from real healing; same for someone who has been victimized by being falsely accused. It will not help any man's situation to continue to breed hate. That is why I have a problem with negativity.
It is possible we are all miscommunicating because we are working on different assumptions of what different concepts mean to us? Again, I am not writing to tell you that everything you do is wrong on here - I am simply trying to have conversation, to learn more about where you are coming from, and yes, possibly bring in a different perspective that could be helpful, if you choose to be open to it. That doesn't mean that I have the capital "T" Truth - it just means that I have a perspective to share - one that has been developed over a long period of time through careful thought and analysis - not thrown out there without consideration or understanding.
This is fascinatingly similar to a discussion I raised on one of the feminist boards I visit, only in that case I was Mag.
I simply raised that there might be another point of view to consider (without going into detail, it was a rape case with some confusion to it) and that the "rapist" may not have realized what he was doing. Some of my points were brought in by legal research and some were things I learned from you gentlemen here.
I was verbally assaulted, knocked around and called a troll for daring to raise my somewhat different viewpoint.
While I agree with Mag that civil discourse is always the best way to go, she is being treated far more civilly here than I was amongst my sister feminists.
I've noted that here and elsewhere before. In general, your site is far more thoughtful on these issues than I typically see on my feminist sites.
Thank you Social Worker -
I agree that there are unfortunately many sides that are guilty of negative and counter-productive reactionary "discussion." So I am not trying to say that this is the worst I've seen or experienced - I am just trying to engage because I have believe that all of you are intelligent enough to have conversation with me. I have tried to be honest and open about my opinions, and tried not to use negativity or personal jabs while responding. I would hope that all here, including myself, will be more interested in genuine conversation and movement towards better solutions to issues than falling into patterns of judgments or assumptions or acting out of defensiveness or attacking others. This is an issue that is very emotionally charged on all sides, and it is easy to react quickly and not always thoughtfully - to jump to conclusions about what someone means by a quick read of what they've said. I look forward to hopefully more conversations and learning more from you all and hope you all are willing to be open to me as well.
All due respect, Mag, I wish you'd answer me just once: in one sentence, what are you saying? I have no idea what you are suggesting, except to be nice to women whose lies often destroy innocent lives. I've posted most of your comments (some, I just lost patience with and deleted), and I will give you one more chance to please respond.
Sorry, Mag. We're just going round and round on this. Spend a few weeks reading the blog and then you'll understand our issues better.
All due respect.
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