Wednesday, December 8, 2010

A feminist who 'gets' it: 'When my husband and I have kids, I don’t want him to get suspicious looks . . . .'

http://ethecofem.com/2010/12/08/trend-piece-tuesday-men-are-scary

26 comments:

Archivist said...

I do not agree with everything April says, elsewhere. I don't think, for example, that talking about "privilege" is helpful or accurate when it comes to the work world or the domestic sphere. But I do think she nails it in this article, and it carries all the more weight coming from an admitted feminist.

Snark said...

She is an earnest feminist.

Personally, I will have nothing to do with her or anyone who identifies as 'feminist' - any more than I would side with a self-identified Nazi against racism. That's about how much sense this all makes.

I find it triggering when somebody identifies as 'feminist'.

Anonymous said...

Snark

I agree.

I can't help but think that if you identify as a feminist you must hate Men.

Anonymous said...

OT:

The Woman Behind Julian Assanges 'Rape' Charges - A look

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dQllcdWiTs&feature=watch_response

Archivist said...

Dr. Christina Hoff Sommers calls herself a feminist (of the equity variety). Anyone interested in false rape claims worships at her altar because she was a pioneer in exposing the hatred of radical gender feminists on this issue.

Anon, to suggest that this woman must hate men after what she wrote is a little bit -- how can I say it? -- um, out there.

And Snark, put it this way: you know how I feel about the Femininst label, but based on this piece, my guess is that, for whatever reason, April is actually thinking for herself. Maybe she never got the memo from the Home Office. If everything "feminists" did looked like this, we'd have no need for this site.

Axel said...

Hell, Snark, she cited False Rape Society with approval! Give her a break! Maybe we can get her to change how she describes herself, but when a self-described feminist teaches that it's wrong to stereotype men based on their sex, that's a good reason let people know about the article. Because usually, anything that favors a woman or that emphasizes the maladies of maleness is just fine with them.

Nick S said...

I agree with Snark. She is an earnest feminist.

What she and others like her are doing is playing a kind of Dutch auction here. i.e. I will agree to concede a few of the most objectionable things, so long as you let me continue other feminist falsehoods. They realize on some level that the tide is turning, and they cannot keep everything. So they are trying to negotiate a strategic withdrawal/truce.

Nick S said...

"I can't help but think that if you identify as a feminist you must hate Men."

The Aprils of this world don't hate men. They simply don't want to give up all the advantages feminism has given women. It is human nature that people generally don't give away power voluntarily.

Instead, she wants us to be grateful for the crumbs of sympathy she offers, while keeping other rorts going.

I don't feel the need to supplicate before such types.

The Shrug said...

Too fucking bad. She obviously went along with the herd and enjoyed the perks. When she finds herself in deep shit, no man will help her for fear of "catching a case".

Archivist said...

Shrug, interesting point. Snark, and Nick, I fully understand.

Feminism, as it is practiced, is a term tained by a thousand lies and an indifference to almost one-half the population of planet earth. But maybe, just maybe, I am right -- maybe April is thinking for herself, and maybe she "gets" that gender equity isn't a one-way steet and that it shouldn't be a lobby for women. I hope I am right.

If I am right, I hope April comes to realize how offensive that feminist association is for so many people, and I hope she finds a new way to describe herself. The notion of gender equity is not offensive -- everyone here agrees with that -- but what feminism is in practice is offensive. From its adherents' opposition to a mere presumption of shared parenting to their insistence that only two percent of all rape claims are false to their refusal to allow even limited anonymity for the presumptively innocent accused of vile sex crimes to their insistence on obtaining a huge chunk of bailout money for "women's" jobs that were never in jeopardy during the recession -- well, feminism has become a lobby for a small subset of women and it blithely ignores notions of gender equity unless women are being advantaged.

I judged April's piece on its own merits. I don't expect anyone else here to accept it, given the baggage associated with the "f" word.

April said...

Thanks for the link, Archivist!

As for the calling-myself-a-feminist thing, I've written about that a lot, too. I don't always feel very comfortable calling myself a feminist for a variety of reasons, and continue to sort of move away from it, but who knows.

I get what you mean, Archivist, about being uncomfortable with the word "privilege" being used, and I'd take it a step further in saying that I don't think it's particularly helpful to use "privilege" as a framework for everything related to gender-based inequality. It's a convenient shorthand, though.

Most of the people at my blog -- readers and a couple of co-bloggers and contributors -- are decidedly not feminists, and are openly critical of feminism as a movement. Not that I'm trying to necessarily encourage the skeptics here to convert to my evil man-hating ways or something (rolling my eyes at that ridiculous accusation, btw) but it's worth noting that just because someone uses the label "feminist" to describe themselves doesn't mean they aren't openly critical of problematic tendencies or "official" stances on issues, either. It's as simple as demanding social, economic, and legal equality between men and women. But I'm not likely to convince many, or any, of you of that, at least as far as my personal feelings are concerned, so... yeah.

I'll go try to figure out what an "earnest feminist" means, now.

Archivist said...

I repeat, one of our heroes strangely calls herself a "feminist" -- Dr. Christina Hoff Sommers. She's one of the leading opponents of the feminist lies about men and rape. But she long ago disassociated herself from the radical gender feminists who rule the feminist movement and starting calling herself an equity feminist. I wish she, too, would drop the "f" word entirely.

I don't expect April to be attuned to the issues we discuss here the way I am, but I will say, in mild defense of Snark and Nick, that feminism has done more to insure that the presumptively innocent accused of rape are treated as pariahs and flotsam than any other force going. Here's an example of the harm the movement has caused: http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/2010/09/underreporting-canard.html I can understand their frustration.

I politely remind Snark and Nick that this blog is unquestionably responsible for getting the feminists in two maintstream pieces last year to back away from the two percent canard. They still aren't where they should be, but it's our rational but fierce advocacy here that has forced them to abandon that lie. I am certain of that. So please, don't anyone dare accuse me of supplicating to anyone, or I will eat you for dessert.

Snark said...

"What she and others like her are doing is playing a kind of Dutch auction here. i.e. I will agree to concede a few of the most objectionable things, so long as you let me continue other feminist falsehoods."

Precisely.

A thought that has been articulated - not yet fully - by both myself and Fidelbogen is that earnest and radical feminism need each other for the whole organism to function.

That is, the radicals could never gain traction without the earnest feminists; but without its misandric core, feminism would have no drive whatsoever, and there would be no space for earnest feminism.

Does this make sense?

Good.

I absolutely, one-hundred-percent refuse to consider anyone identifying as feminist as anything less than my sworn and mortal enemy.

And if certain feminists are made uncomfortable by this fact ... good!

Feminist Barbara Kay recently summed up why men like myself might feel this way. While she made the comment in a hubristic and celebratory tone, it is precisely the argument I would make against feminism:

"I would say that women have more rights than men here, and that is all the result of feminism."

Isn't it so gratifying to hear it coming out of their own mouths?

This particular feminist - April - does not 'get it'. The impetus for her appreciating that men are human beings is that her own husband may be harmed by the misandry that her own movement has created.

Before she realised a personal loved one might be harmed by feminism, she never gave men's humanity or dignity a second thought. Hence the 'epiphanic' tone of the piece. "Hey, I just realised - all this anti-male stuff might actually hurt a guy I care about!"

If she 'got it', then the fact that men are human beings would not come as such a shock.

However.

A feminist criticising feminism is about as good as it gets.

You're now insulated against attacks on this front, through the use of April as a human shield.

If a feminist says it, then it can't be 'misogynistic', can it grrrrrlz?

Snark said...

"I politely remind Snark and Nick that this blog is unquestionably responsible for getting the feminists in two maintstream pieces last year to back away from the two percent canard."

I appreciate your politeness!

But I have never once questioned this blog.

Indeed, in my first comment here, April was the only thing I criticised.

And I added a short section on how disgusting I find feminists.

To me, this seems to be entirely in line with the purpose of this blog!

At least, that is the way that I see it - so it's completely consistent for me, from my own perspective, to both criticise feminism and support this blog one hundred percent.

Snark said...

Hey ... did my comment get taken down?

Well, I wish I'd saved it. It would have been good to post elsewhere if not here.

Archivist said...

Yikes.

April said...

I absolutely, one-hundred-percent refuse to consider anyone identifying as feminist as anything less than my sworn and mortal enemy.

Ooh, exciting! I've always wanted a mortal enemy!

Anonymous said...

Intelligent women know other women will destroy their relationships just to experience the power of doing so.
April understands that female privilege poses and active threat to her marriage,happiness,finances
and could cause irreversable entanglement with the misandrist
"justice system."

In other words she is acting in enlightened self interest.
But she has admitted none of that,instead she poses her defence of men in the terms of her own philosophic outlook.
(which is tainted by the illusion of privilege)

I want my life of privilege!

-recluse-

Anonymous said...

Yes I am aware of my hypocrisy is the double use of the word privilege.
However it has a truthiness that is conducive to ironicy.

(also it makes a good shorthand)
-recluse-

Archivist said...

Guys, I know how we all feel about the dreaded "f" word, but it is well to remember that the post I wrote and the one April wrote don't represent exactly mainstream thinking. Want to see something scary? Take a look at the comments here about my piece:
http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1485428

Anonymous said...

That's the deal with "feminists".

They seem to forget their sons, husbands, fathers are part of the awful male rape culture gender.

When they talk about how bad men are, they don't mean their OWN sons. They just mean just YOUR son.

They don't think THEIR sons belong in prison. They believe YOUR son does.

They don't believe in innocent until proven guilty for YOUR son - just their own.

They don't believe false rape accusations exist - until THEIR son is accused.

In fact, they hate ALL men - except their own.

Cause that's "different".

Anonymous said...

April's husband will be sincere, hardworking and deserving.

YOUR husband will be "priviledged" overpaid, and undeserving.

April's son will go off to college a sincere, hardworking and deserving young man. ( Heads up, April, better start saving now, there are very few scholarships available for "priviledged" males.)

YOUR son will be a potential rapist.


See how feminism works?

Social Worker said...

To April: "I absolutely, one-hundred-percent refuse to consider anyone identifying as feminist as anything less than my sworn and mortal enemy."

"Ooh, exciting! I've always wanted a mortal enemy!"


You'll have to get in line, April. I think Snark and I have gone at it more than a few times.

I'm the feminist that's been called both a feminazi here AND a misogynist on some of the feminist websites I've frequented for making the SAME DAMN POINT!
Ironic.

I've also gotten the earnest feminist barb. Fidelbogen or Snark (sorry, guys, can't recall which) posted a couple of good essays on his site that outline his view of the Earnest Feminist.

I don't know if this helps the perspective at all, but I've tossed the idea before that feminism is not all one thing; it's a continuum. Some of us share and agree with your views on the false rape and other "MRA" issues (I just call them issues) and some fall into the hardcore camp of separatism that refuses to consider "another" side.

Having seen a variety of viewpoints at the various pro-men sites that range from more liberal to more conservative (I mean that in the philosophical, not political context), is it so hard to believe that those using the feminist label would range similarly?
Does that make the more liberal amongst those men Earnest Masculinists?

It's also issues-based. Feminists primarily concerned with economic concepts are less interested and vocal about sexual abuse and rape topics and vice versa.

Tagging onto Archivist's comment, we have to judge people individually, based on what we know about THEM, not necessarily their affiliation or group-base.
Otherwise, we fall into a stereotypically bigoted role.

Now! Mortal Enemieeeeeesss, FIGHT!

Anonymous said...

Fidelbogen, where are you?

Snark said...

"Ooh, exciting! I've always wanted a mortal enemy!"

COOL response! Sassy and to the point!

Ah ...

What do you make of your sista Barbara Kay's admission that feminism = female supremacism?

Archivist said...

I "get" the earnest feminist stuff, but I keep coming back to Dr. Christina Hoff Sommers. Call it "earnest," call it a ham sandwich if you want. She's done more to help our cause in the false rape area than practically anyone I can think of.