Thursday, July 15, 2010

If the presumptively innocent are given anonymity, a rape advocate says there will be more rapes

In one of the most despicable assertions ever uttered in the rape context, Chair of Women Against Rape Ruth Hall said the following: "There will be lots more rape victims" if the presumptively innocent accused of rape are afforded anonymity until they are charged.  Women's groups and scores of MPs posit, with straight faces, that anonymity will deter victims coming from reporting their ordeal to police. Link: here 

Why will women be deterred?  Well, the scattershot reasons posited in support of this epiphany are the proverbial moving target.  First, they say, anonymity will somehow, some way, stigmatize women as liars, thus deterring actual rape victims from "coming forward."  Second, it's often only publicity that makes rape victims "come forward," so it's important for victims to know that other women have also accused their rapist.

This is dishonest fear-mongering in the extreme, pure and simple.  We need to put this underreporting assertion in context:

Prior to the great wave of rape reforms starting in the 1970s, rape advocates reported, with seemingly infinite invention, that women were too scared, too embarrassed, too certain of its futility to report their own rapes. The sexual grievance industry insisted that rape was underreported, and that reforms were needed to do justice to countless women who suffered in silence the brutal indignity of rape. So we kowtowed to the sexual grievance industry to solve "the problem." 

First, we adopted laws that eliminated the requirement of corroboration, which de facto served to flip the old law on its head: now, women don't need any corroboration of their claims, but men and boys are arrested based solely on even the far-fetched say-so of any woman or girl if they can't produce corroborating evidence of their innocence.

That wasn't enough, they said. So we adopted rape shield laws that forbade almost any evidence of the accuser's prior sexual history with persons other than the accused, a rule that resulted in innumerable innocent men and boys being sent to prison for alleged rapes that never occurred. 

That wasn't enough, they said. So we adopted laws that eliminated the requirement of force, and innocent men and boys who misunderstood the acquiescence of a woman were sent to prison.  

That wasn't enough, they said.  So we enacted laws that eliminated the mens rea requirement for rape.  Historically, in a rape prosecution, the guilty defendant must have had the intention to have intercourse with a woman without her consent.  Too stringent, said the sexual grievance industry, and the requirement was lightened or dropped altogether.

That wasn't enough, they said.  So we enacted laws (in the UK and a handful of US states) that legally forbade naming rape accusers.  In the US, the news agencies and outlets have, by common consensus, agreed not to name rape accusers. The mere allegation of rape by the anonymous female, without any other evidence and no matter how far-fetched, invites a man's name to be splashed all over the newspaper, TV, radio and Internet for the world to titillate at the details of his humiliation.

That wasn't enough, they said.  So we enacted laws that lengthened and even eliminated statutes of limitations for rape, and now, men are sometimes accused of and charged with alleged rapes that occurred 20, 30, 40 or more years after they supposedly occurred, effectively foreclosing the accused from mounting a meaningful defense because the evidence of their innocence has long disappeared.

That wasn't enough, they said. So we enacted VAWA which, among many other things, pays the legal bills of alleged victims of sexual assault. VAWA pays none of the legal bills of men accused of rape, the presumed innocent -- even those who were falsely accused.  In the UK, it's worse. They compensate alleged rape victims, even the ones not subjected to any physical force, no matter how slight their injuries; the UK does not compensate men falsely accused of rape, no matter how egregious their harm. Sometimes false rape accusers are compensated.

That wasn't enough, they said. So we enacted laws that exempted rape accusers from taking polygraph tests as a condition to proceeding with the rape investigation.  In contrast, using polygraphs on men accused of rape is routine, and often if men don't submit to them, even flimsy charges won't be dropped. (Moreover, polygraphs are routinely used to insure that sex offenders (predominantly male) are adhering to the terms of their probation, and a refusal to take the polygraph will land the person refusing in jail.)

That wasn't enough, they said. So we enacted Fed.R.Evid. 413 and many states adopted similar laws. Unlike any other criminal charge, including murder, assault, even planning the World Trade Center attacks, a rape trial in federal court and in various states allows evidence of the defendant's commission of prior offenses (specifically, his prior offenses of sexual assault) to show that he has a propensity for committing the crime at issue. This rule, which is unique in all of American jurisprudence and widely condemned by legal scholars, allows the jury to hear about the defendant's prior acts whether or not the defendant takes the stand. Even accusations of prior sexual offenses that occurred years before -- and even crimes for which the defendant was acquitted -- are admissible if the alleged act is proven by just a preponderance of the evidence (far lower than beyond a reasonable doubt). This is sometimes all a jury needs to convict the man or boy of the crime at issue.

That wasn't enough, they said.  So we enacted rules on college campuses making it easier and easier to expel males accused of sexual wrongdoing, with kangaroo courts and inquisitorial hearing processes. Many college campuses adopted rules that say rape accusers can't be charged with underage drinking in connection with their accusation, thus providing yet one more motive to lie about rape for any young woman looking to evade an underage drinking charge.

But surely these massive reforms must have cut into underreporting of rape? Surely after decades of one reform after the next to encourage women to come forward, the women must be lining up, right?

Well, no, we are told. Nothing has ever worked to curb alleged underreporting, and underreporting is supposedly still rampant. As but one example, on college campuses, the supposed hotbed for modern rape, more than ninety five percent of students who are sexually assaulted supposedly remain silent, we are told.  All the rape reforms, all the bending over backwards to get victims to "come forward" have been a waste of time.

So what's really going on here?  Here's the reality. No one knows the precise extent of underreporting, and no one ever has. The politicization of rape renders it impossible to discern whether underreporting even exists. See, J. Fennel, Punishment by Another Name: The Inherent Overreaching in Sexually Dangerous Person Commitments 35 N.E. J. on Crim. & Civ. Con. 37, 49-51 (2009). The "proof" proffered for underreporting ranges from unreliable to nonexistent, and the truth is held hostage by radical feminist ideology.

Yet underreporting remains the Excalibur of the sexual grievance industry, the secret weapon with magical powers that is whipped out and wielded to achieve any desired goal.

Now alleged underreporting is being wielded in a last ditch effort to stop the plan for anonymity for the presumptively innocent. This plan, you must know, will not grant anonymity until conviction but only until a man is charged.  It is, thus, the most modest reform imaginable to protect innocent men, scarcely a reform at all, if truth be told. But to the sexual grievance industry, any support for the presumptively innocent is too much support.

The injection of underreporting into this discussion is a vile prevarication.  Anonymity for the presumptively innocent has nothing to do with whether women come forward. Anonymity does not send a message that rape victims should not be believed any more than anonymity for rape accusers sends a message that rape accusers should be believed over the men and boys they accuse. The message conveyed by this very limited anonymity plan is that the harm of publicly identifying falsely accused men is unconscionable, because a rape claim is loathsome and because, once a rape claim is alleged, unlike other allegations of criminality, it is nearly impossible to disprove.  The sexual grievance industry doesn't bother discussing the harm to the presumptively innocent. 

Women will not stop coming forward to report rape even when the accused are anonymous. After all, women continue to come forward now even when the accused is a teen male who is legally anonymous.  I have never heard any member of the sexual grievance industry claim that granting anonymity for teen males accused of rape somehow creates more rapists.  In fact, it is likely that more women will come forward if men are anonymous. When women cry rape and the man is identified, it often isn't difficult to infer who the accuser is. It is reasonable to assume that most rape victims would prefer not to have their identities revealed by inference.

What the sexual grievance industry has never been able to explain is this: if there are, in fact, so many roadblocks for actual rape victims to reporting their rapes, why the hell are there so many false rape claims?  There ain't no underreporting when it comes to false rapes. If the liars have no difficulty "coming forward," why is it so difficult for actual rape victims to report?
 
Or are we not supposed to talk about that?

64 comments:

Anonymous said...

We're not supposed to talk about that.

Impressive piece.

Anonymous said...

To repeat what I said in March of this year:

"Anonymous said...

@Archivist
""The fact is that 100% of false accusations are reported. Not always to law enforcement, but they are reported."

Don't know what that means but a huge percentage of false claims are held over men's heads by liars as a sort of blackmail. I've seen that happen up close."


I guess we need to define "reported."

To clarify: If a false accusation happens in a forest and there is no one around to hear it, will the accused still serve 20 years and have to register as a sex offender? Probably. :)

Seriously though, what I meant was that an individual making a false accusation must have disclosed the information to SOMEONE or entered it SOMEWHERE where it is available for review, even if it is not to an authority that can enforce consequences for behavior. The accusation is not made inside of their heads and kept there.

Valid rape claims however, may not be reported, because the claimant may never ever disclose it to anyone, and unless it was observed by a third party, the only people that would know would be the valid claimant and the rapist.

Therefore 100% of false accusations are always reported (even if only to the accused and for purposes of blackmail).
Mar 16, 2010 3:05:00 PM "


Since 100% of false claims are ALWAYS REPORTED, providing anonymity to the accused will help mitigate the impact of false claims. The fact is that if there is valid forensic evidence to support the claim, it will be found (if the investigators look hard enough) and it will used against the accused.

Of course there is the other issue of invalid or fabricated forensic evidence, dry labbing and faked DNA evidence that need to be considered:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2009/08/19/think-dna-evidence-cant-be-faked-think-again/

Also, we have an issue of DNA surveillance on the accused and presumed innocent:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2009/04/20/dna-sampling-of-innocent-until-proven-guilty-people-is-on-the-rise/

You're damned if you do and damned if you don't submit to a buccal swab or blood sample. Voluntarily submitting to a swab or blood sample may actually keep you from being arrested (a major goal of the falsely accused, certainly) but the question becomes what to do with the genetic evidence after you're no-billed or acquitted? Should that DNA sample be destroyed and removed from databases? To me anonymity requirements should also include the return of DNA evidence and wiping such samples from any database as soon as the "no true bill" is returned from a grand jury or as soon as the defendant is acquitted by trial.

We need anonymity for the presumed innocent all the way through the legal process: if anonymity is granted to the accuser, it NEEDS to be granted to the accused. Or there needs to be no anonymity for either side. How else can equal justice be meted out?

Notre Dame said...

The point is, women supposedly are afraid to report they've been raped, right? Well, they sure aren't afraid of reporting they've been falsely accused. Personally, I would expect the false claimants to be the first deterred by all the so-called roadblocks to reporting. We need to stop letting them beat us in the balls about "underreporting". With all the false claims, rape is OVER-reported. How many actual rape victims don't report? For all we know, they all report. And then some.

Archivist said...

Notre Dame, right. Reporting anything so intimate and awful is off-putting, of course. But, hell, that doesn't stop the false accusers from "coming forward," does it? Ever consider why that is?

It is precisely because rape is so intimate and so awful that rape liars know their fabrications will garner enormous support and sympathy from third parties and rage directed toward the alleged rapist. Seriously, have you ever considered why rape liars pick rape instead of, say, robbery? Because a false robbery claim wouldn't get the kind of reaction from third parties that a false rape claim gets.

Anonymous said...

OT: Here is what can be done to a man when there is no anonymity and he is subject to feminist jurisprudence:

http://www.ejfi.org/emerson.htm

slwerner said...

Anonymous - "You're damned if you do and damned if you don't submit to a buccal swab or blood sample. Voluntarily submitting to a swab or blood sample may actually keep you from being arrested (a major goal of the falsely accused, certainly) but the question becomes what to do with the genetic evidence after you're no-billed or acquitted? Should that DNA sample be destroyed and removed from databases? To me anonymity requirements should also include the return of DNA evidence and wiping such samples from any database as soon as the "no true bill" is returned from a grand jury or as soon as the defendant is acquitted by trial"

This is a very good point to bring up. I agree with you 100% that the DNA data and any remaining sample specimens MUST be destroyed whenever some one is cleared of wrongdoing by that DNA evidence.

Here, in Colorado, the Colorado Bureau of Investigation (CBI) maintains such a searchable database of collected DNA (CODUS), and there is a good deal of concern about the inclusion of the DNA data for those who are proven to be innocent (and, even those who are not convicted, but not necessarily cleared of a crime).

I think that a good many people have a very sketchy understanding of the use of DNA evidence, and the issue related to that usage.

Might I suggest that you expand on your post above, and submitted to our hosts as a guest post providing more detail about how DNA evidence is collected, analyzed, and used (or, misused)?

ScareCrow said...

"That's not enough they said".

Dang. I knew it was bad, but I did not know it was this bad.

Thanks for itemizing all the crap laws that they passed - this will make an excellent reference.

Anonymous said...

That is an excellent summary of the changes in the law. Imho, all those changes should be repealed.

The weird thing about this issue is that the liberal feminist position is opposite of the way the law is most generally used to address unwanted behavior: by making the behavior itself illegal.

If the conviction rate is too low (a frequent complaint of British feminists) or the number of rape accusations dismissed by the police is too high (according to the Baltimore Sun), then the answer is to discourage the behavior that causes those problems, by making false accusations more illegal.

If the problem is that people are not reporting actual rapes, then not reporting rape should be illegal. Now, I imagine the first reaction to such a law would be that it would almost never be enforced because law enforcement would have no way of knowing a crime occurred in the first place. Which leads to my next point:

Neither does anyone else.

If the victims of these alleged crimes don't care enough to report them, then why should the rest of society have to bend over backwards?

Yes, there is an argument that a person who commits rape may rape again. So anyone who fails to report a rapist who rapes again is partially responsible for those subsequent felonies. Which is why it is not only dishonest, but morally and civilly irresponsible not to report a rape that has occurred. And therefore, such behavior should be against the law.

Not reporting a rape that has occurred is no less false than reporting a rape that has not occurred. They are two sides of the same coin. In both situations there are people not telling the truth about rape.

If rape is under-reported, then it is the fault of those under-reporting rape. If this is a serious problem as the liberal feminists claim, then let's put the blame on those solely responsible -- the people who don't report rape.

What is unfair to honest rape victims who do the right thing, is that a person reporting an actual rape is thrown in the same boat with the 40 - 97% of people reporting rape who are not telling the truth. That's the root of the problem that the liberal feminists want to ignore. Actual rape victims would be more likely to come forward, and more likely to be believed, if there were fewer false reports.

Archivist said...

Anon at 12:43: "If the victims of these alleged crimes don't care enough to report them, then why should the rest of society have to bend over backwards?"

You've opened a can of worms that I think needs to be addressed. Very perceptive comment.

I think your comment reflects the views of most people, men and women. We'd all agree that a girl who is raped by her father and has real fears about reporting it needs our support and sympathy. But when the decision not to report is a free choice by an adult (and note I said "free" not "easy" -- and please don't try to tell me what "duress" is: I am so tired of loony feminist definitions that engorge that concept to cover all manner of situations that are actually free choices), perhaps our concern is misplaced? We've had three decades of massive education about what rape is. By now women have a good idea if they've been raped. If they don't report, is it our job to risk convicting innocent men and boys because of their free choice?

Please be aware that at least a lot of rape advocates are not especially concerned about underreporting. They see it as a useful way to insist that rape is rampant, that's all. How? Nobody is reporting all these rapes that MUST be occurring; we know they MUST be occurring because underreporting is so rampant. Which proves rape is rampant. Get it? Neither does anyone else. Underreporting is a useful tool to get more funding, to "prove" the importance of having a sexual assault counselor, etc. In short, it's a lie. They NEED underreporting to justify their existence. Is it just a coincidence that with all these rape reforms, we still supposedly have incredible underreporting? I don't think so. If the reforms don't work, let's get rid of them, right?

So, why don't women report? First, could it be that maybe, just maybe, "rape" is being defined too broadly by some people, and women aren't reporting because they really don't think it was a crime?

Second, a lot of women -- and I mean a lot of women -- have had unwanted/conflicted sex but aren't sure if the guys understood that their vague and amorphous signals were not consent. The reality is, "unwanted" sex is usually "conflicted" sex. She didn't want to scare the guy off with a "no," but secretly would have preferred not to have sex. In other words, like so many of the "rape victims" in the Koss report, they realize that the sex at issue was at worst a misunderstanding, not rape.

Your question merits its own post. Very good!

Anonymous said...

It makes no sense to claim on one hand that there is a vast, vast pool of unreported, unpunished rapes and that on the other anonymity will somehow cause a rape surge. Anonymity doesn't prevent rapists from being convicted -- quite the contrary, it merely gives the defendent a level playing field with the accuser, who is already being given anonymity.

And at any rate, anonymity for false rape accusers certainly has caused an increase in false accusations. So the argument is self-serving and disingenuous.

Anonymous said...

As for whether or not unreported rapes are really rapes or just disappointing sex, obviously if a woman has a sexual encounter that she doesn't object to, it's not rape.

If coercion occurred then it was a rape. But feminists don't seem to believe that even a grown woman is capable of consenting to sex, except with those males they approve of.

Archivist said...

Anon at 1:26: I agree. Excellent.

Anon at 1:28: Be careful of using that word "coercion." All sorts of "coercion" does not result in rape. ("Ah, come on, we haven't had sex in two months" -- when the woman gives in, that's rape, say the radical feminists, which is frightening, because it's not rape.)

Anonymous said...

I've also noticed that no matter how many men -- including innocent men -- go to prison on rape charges in the west, it's never enough; Chicken Little continues to complain that rape conviction rates are too low and our daughters are being preyed upon by libertine meatsacks.

But noboody noticed that false rape accusers are all but above the law -- that part of the story always gets cut. It's a contrast between a crime that our governments go into contortions to fight versus a crime that is virtually approved of by the state.

AfOR said...

coercion huh...

my FRA said "how about a fuck?" some time before making an FRA against me, then whined some more when I put her off...

coercion my ass

AfOR said...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1294947/Wicked-woman-cried-rape-jailed-years-despite-seven-months-pregnant.html

Archivist said...

AfOR, check for my comment on that story from earlier. The first comment was from some misandrist, and everybody just went nuts about it.

AfOR said...

yup, posted the link now because it had her photo...

Anonymous said...

And this isn't even full anonymity, but just anonymity up to the moment of charge.

This feminist is putting on her chicken little routine to keep innocent defendents like the Duke boys in the papers, because somehow supporting Crystal Mangum's lies is going to reduce rape.

Anonymous said...

"Four suspects were held for questioning for more than 60 hours and subjected to intimate examinations of their genitalia."

Feminist jurisprudence. Torture and humiliate men, never mind if they are guilty or not.

Anonymous said...

"AfOR, check for my comment on that story from earlier. The first comment was from some misandrist, and everybody just went nuts about it."

From what I see, the British public generally are far less tolerant of rape liars than the US public - perhaps explaining why years in jail is the normal punishment here, not just a 'stern telling off' allowing her to do it all over again.

Perhaps it's also why anonymity was put forward by the government.

Anonymous said...

God bless the UK.

Archivist said...

Anon at 3:39: You'll see the same sort of comments under false rape stories in the US. The difference is that the UK's feminists are much bolder. Those people don't care what they say about men, they are so hateful.

Archivist said...

What am I saying? We have plenty of feminists just as bad.

Anonymous said...

But our feminists may be smarter when it comes to working the media and the political system. The U.K. feminists, on the other hand, let their pseudo-facist urges hang out on the line for all to see.

Anonymous said...

@slwerner who, on Jul 15, 2010 12:04:00 PM, said:

"I think that a good many people have a very sketchy understanding of the use of DNA evidence, and the issue related to that usage.

Might I suggest that you expand on your post above, and submitted to our hosts as a guest post providing more detail about how DNA evidence is collected, analyzed, and used (or, misused)?"

As soon as my case is over and all related legal issues have been resolved, I will definitely expand on the issue of DNA in relation to forensics and civil rights. When my life has settled down, I hope to post regularly on FRS as a guest commentator.

In the meantime, curious readers will find the following information helpful in the discussion of DNA forensics issues:

Tarnish on the "Gold Standard"
Understanding Recent Problems in Forensic DNA Testing by William C. Thompson University of California, Irvine

http://www.nasams.org/forensics/for_lib/Documents/1138913547.79/DNA%20Problems1.pdf

In Praise of Statues of Limitations in Sex Offense Cases
by James Herbie DiFonzo

http://www.houstonlawreview.org/archive/downloads/41-4_pdf/difonzo.pdf

Hofstra Law Review, The Crimes of The Crime Labs by James Herbie DiFonzo (Fall 2005)

http://www.thejusticeproject.org/wp-content/uploads/crimes-of-crime-labs-hofstra.pdf

Council for Responsible Genetics: A Citizen's Guide To Your Rights,
Scenarios And Responses

http://www.councilforresponsiblegenetics.org/pageDocuments/I6W7Q3D7RM.pdf

A Beginner's Primer on the Investigation of Forensic Evidence
by Kim Kruglick

http://www.scientific.org/tutorials/articles/kruglick/kruglick.html

Forsensics Under Fire: Are Bad Science and Dueling Experts Corrupting Criminal Justice?
by Jim Fisher

http://www.amazon.com/Forensics-Under-Fire-Corrupting-Criminal/dp/0813542715

Much of what I would have to say on the DNA forensics and database issues would start with the information from these studies and articles above. When the time comes, I can certainly summarize and expand the scope of the issue. This subject is a moving target because of the nature of and rapid changes in forensics technology, law, and information science.

Anonymous said...

Off-Topic: The Scottsboro Boys Case

We have discussed the Scottsboro Boys Case in some detail on False Rape Society, and I wanted to share a resource from PBS which did An American Experience documentary on the case:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/scottsboro/

Social Worker said...

I agree with the main point here and disagree with another.

Second first:
Girls and women often don't come forward when they are raped and the reason is generally the same: Shame.
They feel worthless and damaged by what was done and make a decision to "protect" themselves from further shame by not coming forward.
It is not logical and it won't be understood by many, unless you have been there.

With that understanding, though, what you wrote is absolutely correct, Archivist. Most laws to try to "make it easier" for women to report will have no effect and should not exist. In this case, given the sensitive nature of rape cases, there should be anonymity for both. You can't compare it to robbery or other crimes as they don't carry the stigma for both parties as does rape.

You can't legislate people out of a feeling. That requires a societal shift in attitudes. A girl who's been raped doesn't make her decision to come forward or not because the accused will/won't be named...or for money...or because of her history. Having the man's identity exposed only matters if you have something to gain and only a false accuser would.

Good point, Archivist, as usual. I just wish I could raise and support these points in other areas without being threatened with a ban or called a traitor.

Anonymous said...

Those are reasonable points, Social Worker.

Archivist said...

Anon at 7:40: I can't say "you're wrong," I just don't know. For all the shame we are told young women feel about being raped, a hell of a lot of young women who aren't raped have precisely zero shame when they "come forward" to claim they were raped.

And when we're talking about adults, when they don't report, well, that's their choice. Their possible decision not to report (and again, we don't know how many are not reporting) shouldn't be used to justify enhancing the likelihood of charging and convicting an innocent man.

That's not be callous; that's being realistic. Too much policy is being made on the basis of hypothetical underreporting.

Anonymous said...

I have a question. Why are we still listening to these psycho man hating females and their irrational rantings? We should just be throwing rocks at them.

Anonymous said...

"Girls and women often don't come forward when they are raped and the reason is generally the same: Shame."

We don't know that girls and women often don't come forward when they are raped because we have no evidence to support such a claim, and for the obvious reason -- they aren't reported.

Regardless, anonymity and rape shield laws can only serve to perpetuate whatever shame actual rape victims might feel, by treating them like they have something to hide. If they didn't do anything wrong why would they need to hide their identity or cover their past?

Feminists try to blame "slut shaming" (which is part of "rape culture", which I can only imagine when mixed with milk, creates "rape yogurt") for false accusations resulting from group sex or promiscuous behavior, such as the Hofstra case. What they fail to acknowledge is that if there is such a thing as "slut shaming" it is generally other women doing the shaming. Of course, "slut shaming" couldn't possibly apply to false rape accusations where no sex occurred. In those situations, women feel absolutely no shame in "coming forward".

If anything stigmatizes women as liars, it's the women who lie. If rape is under-reported, then it is the fault of those under-reporting rapes. If women feel ashamed, then it's the fault of the women shaming them. Whatever problems exists with rape, the solutions will not be found by completely ignoring the people directly responsible for those particular problems.

Archivist said...

Anon at 11:31, thank you for your insightful comment.

Anonymous said...

The bottom line is folks..She is lying!!
But desperate eunech males hang on every lie that this beast women says.

Anonymous said...

"Girls and women often don't come forward when they are raped and the reason is generally the same: Shame.
They feel worthless and damaged by what was done and make a decision to "protect" themselves from further shame by not coming forward.
It is not logical and it won't be understood by many, unless you have been there."

Question for whoever wrote this irresponsible and illogical nonsense....
IF IT IS SO SHAMEFULL FOR WOMEN TO REPORT BEING RAPED....THEN WHY ARE THERE SO MANY FALSE RAPE ACCUSATIONS??? This is a rhetorical question for yer answer would be ideoligally based, and probibly would have very little to do with "objective studies, and reality"
The bottom line here folks is that it is a straight up "PERVERSION" of our legal community that has fostered this false rape culture we are now in.

Anonymous said...

Some women may not report being raped because they were raped by someone they know and they don't want to inflict the legal system's horrific penalties on them.

If sentences for rape were more modest it's possible that you would see an increase in rape reporting -- assuming that there really is a significant number of women who don't report.

Anonymous said...

"Anon at 11:31, thank you for your insightful comment."

You are too kind.

"IF IT IS SO SHAMEFULL FOR WOMEN TO REPORT BEING RAPED....THEN WHY ARE THERE SO MANY FALSE RAPE ACCUSATIONS???"

While I understand the implication, let's not confuse two separate groups of people: innocent victims who were raped, and criminals who make false accusations.

It is possible, especially considering all of the feminist propaganda that rape victims will not be believed, that significant under-reporting could exist. Further, it's plausible that rape victims might be less likely to report due to emotional trauma and psychological damage. We simply have no way of knowing how significant under-reporting might be. It's all speculation unsupported by evidence. What is implausible is that any changes in legislation, such as rules of evidence, could have an effect on those causes.

Otoh, false rape accusers are unlikely to have the same feelings or psychological state as rape victims for the simple reason they have not been raped. As others have commented on this blog, false rape accusers often have personality disorders, as well as comorbid substance abuse. So while it might not feel shameful for those insulated by drugs or insanity, who are less capable of establishing interpersonal boundaries, feeling guilt, or motivated by revenge or alibi. It does not mean that reporting rape might not feel shameful to normal women who actually have been raped.

All that aside, the issue here is holding people, regardless of sex or whatever excuses people might be able to make up for them, accountable for their own behavior.

Anonymous said...

"Some women may not report being raped because they were raped by someone they know and they don't want to inflict the legal system's horrific penalties on them."

That seems very unlikely.

Archivist said...

"It is possible, especially considering all of the feminist propaganda that rape victims will not be believed, that significant under-reporting could exist."

The Stern Review came to a similar conclusion: stop lying about how rape is rampant but that rapists are hardly ever convicted because it may be putting off actual victims from reporting.

Archivist said...

"It is possible, especially considering all of the feminist propaganda that rape victims will not be believed, that significant under-reporting could exist."

The Stern Review came to a similar conclusion: stop lying about how rape is rampant but that rapists are hardly ever convicted because it may be putting off actual victims from reporting.

Anonymous said...

"The Stern Review came to a similar conclusion: stop lying about how rape is rampant but that rapists are hardly ever convicted because it may be putting off actual victims from reporting."

The problem is that liberal feminists care more about advancing their callous political agenda than doing anything about actual rape.

A good example is on college campuses. Violent rapes against students perpetrated by off-campus strangers are largely ignored, while drunk people having sex is a huge political issue.

If feminists honestly believed that one-in-four female students were actually raped, wouldn't they take more drastic measures? They are motivated by politics, not crime prevention or the safety of individual women.

In spite of their rhetoric, feminists don't want less rape, they want more rape. Their entire movement is fueled by rape, but is running on fumes. So they need to create new sources of rape by constantly expanding its definition, and squeezing every last drop of rape out every possible situation. The last thing they would want to do is try to prevent the precious little actual rape that does occur. And anyone else, who dares suggest that encouraging young women to stumble around drunk and half-naked might not be the best idea, is a misogynist.

It's all bullshit.

Archivist said...

As harsh as it might sound, I must agree with you Anon at 4:36. Except I don't think they ignore stranger rape. There is virtually no stranger rape on campus. This article -- http://www.city-journal.org/2008/18_1_campus_rape.html -- gave them fits. It's Heather MacDonald's landmark examination of rape hysteria on campus.

Here's how it starts out: "It’s a lonely job, working the phones at a college rape crisis center. Day after day, you wait for the casualties to show up from the alleged campus rape epidemic—but no one calls. Could this mean that the crisis is overblown? No: it means, according to the campus sexual-assault industry, that the abuse of coeds is worse than anyone had ever imagined. It means that consultants and counselors need more funding to persuade student rape victims to break the silence of their suffering."

Anonymous said...

"As harsh as it might sound, I must agree with you Anon at 4:36. Except I don't think they ignore stranger rape. There is virtually no stranger rape on campus."

I'm not saying that it is common, but it does happen. Consider that some of the largest universities have tens of thousands of female students. If you simply divide the number of rape reports counted by the FBI by the total female population, even ignoring age, that's a rate of six per ten thousand.

Heather MacDonald even mentions something similar in her article:

"Guess which incident got the most attention at William and Mary? The Delta Delta Delta formal “rape.” Like many stranger rapists on campus, the knifepoint assailant was black, and thus an unattractive target for politically correct protest....Stranger rapes also provide less opportunity for bureaucratic expansion."

Social Worker said...

Anon @ 2:17:

Thank you for laying that out much more clearly than I did.

That's exactly the point I was going to make. There are two different groups we are talking about here with completely different make-ups. The actual victims and the false accusers.
False accusers have no shame.

Anonymous said...

Females who are raped or even an attempted rape are not usually traumatised.In fact, many of them don't even care if you use their name or even picture.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/riverside_park_sex_maniac_CTjbRA0GtN3ez6siVaHD3O#comments

Anonymous said...

http://tinyurl.com/23m4e8d

Anonymous said...

"Females who are raped or even an attempted rape are not usually traumatised."

That's nonsense.

Nick S said...

Another poster has already mentioned it, but it is worth repeating. Whether or not there are vast numbers of unreported rapes has precisely zero relevance to the problem of false allegations.

By definition, 100% of false allegations are reported (at least to someone, most likely law enforcement). So if the bulk of genuine rapes are swept under the carpet, while most false claims are reported, what does that say about reported rape claims? Well, to anyone with a reasoning brain, it clearly suggests they are heavily biased towards false allegations. Yet by some perversion of logic, the vast number of supposedly unreported cases gets thrown in our faces as though it has anything to do with the price of fish.

It is also a mistake to start blaming women who don't report actual rapes. This is falling into the feminist trap of pitting different causes against one another when they are not mutually exclusive at all.

I am sure there are many women who are raped and are too fearful or ashamed to come forward. They are not the problem, and are deserving of compassion.

Anonymous said...

"It is also a mistake to start blaming women who don't report actual rapes."

No one is blaming women who don't report actual rapes for anything other than not reporting actual rapes.

"This is falling into the feminist trap of pitting different causes against one another when they are not mutually exclusive at all."

I don't see how.

"I am sure there are many women who are raped and are too fearful or ashamed to come forward. They are not the problem, and are deserving of compassion."

No one is saying that they are not deserving of compassion. However, if as the feminists claim the problem is that there are so many unreported rapes, then it is the behavior of those women who are are "too fearful or ashamed to come forward" that is the cause of that problem.

Anonymous said...

But they are responsible for reporting it. The victims of false accusations should in no way be required to suffer for their sake.

Nick S said...

"No one is saying that they are not deserving of compassion. However, if as the feminists claim the problem is that there are so many unreported rapes, then it is the behavior of those women who are are "too fearful or ashamed to come forward" that is the cause of that problem."

No, if the feminists are using the plight of women too afraid of coming forward as a stick to beat falsely accused men with, then it is the feminists who are to blame for resorting to such mischievous and dishonest arguments. Direct your anger at them, no-one else.

It is not the fault of women too afraid to come forward that they are being used by the feminists in order to score cheap points.

Anonymous said...

"No, if the feminists are using the plight of women too afraid of coming forward as a stick to beat falsely accused men with, then it is the feminists who are to blame for resorting to such mischievous and dishonest arguments."

No what? Those are two separate assertions. Yes, what feminists do is the fault of feminists. And what women who are too afraid to come forward do is the fault of women who are too afraid to come forward.

"It is not the fault of women too afraid to come forward that they are being used by the feminists in order to score cheap points."

No one said it was.

Nick S said...

"No what? Those are two separate assertions. Yes, what feminists do is the fault of feminists. And what women who are too afraid to come forward do is the fault of women who are too afraid to come forward."

The mere fact that you choose to define the issue in this way really shows how much you don't get it.

By definition, there is only ever a need to apportion blame or fault to anyone if they have done something wrong or potentially harmful to another. If a woman is raped and too afraid or ashamed to come forward, this is not her "fault". By definition, she has not done anything to attempt to harm anyone else. So where is the "fault" for anything?

On the other hand, when feminists start using the plight of said women as a cudgel against innocent men, clearly there is an element of fault and blame for mischievously pursuing the innocent and exploiting human suffering to score cheap points.

"No one said it was."

Sigh. Yes, I am well aware that no-one explicitly put it like that. I was merely trying to work my way around the logic of the various puts being argued. Duh!.

Nick S said...

Anon, I will try to put the concept in simple terms you may understand. Suppose Fred and Mike are having an argument about something. Fred is losing the argument, so he brings up something about Brian in order to score a point, even though Brian has never involved himself in the dispute or blamed anyone.

Now in this situation there is no need for Fred to blame Brian for anything. All he has to say is 'leave Brian out of this'.

Now imagine that you substitute Fred for the feminists, Mike for the falsely accused, and Brian for women too afraid to report being raped.

Think about it, until you have assimilated the concept into your understanding.

Nick S said...

Correction: in the second paragraph, substitute Mike for Fred.

Anonymous said...

"Anon, I will try to put the concept in simple terms you may understand."

Please spare us your condescension. What's simple is that people are responsible for their own behavior.

"By definition, she has not done anything to attempt to harm anyone else. So where is the "fault" for anything?"

If you don't think, contrary to the feminist position, that women who don't report actual rape isn't any sort of problem, or causes any harm, then perhaps "fault" isn't the right word. Otoh, if you do think it is a problem, then it is their fault. Either way, they are responsible for that behavior because they are the ones doing it. It's not that complicated.

Nick S said...

"If you don't think, contrary to the feminist position, that women who don't report actual rape isn't any sort of problem, or causes any harm, then perhaps "fault" isn't the right word."

Anon, that's quite some achievement. You have just put five negatives in one sentence. You have "don't", "contrary", "don't" again, "isn't", and "isn't" again.

Now, I know in the English language that a double negative is a positive. But fuck me if I can work out what five negatives in the one sentence means.

"Please spare us your condescension. What's simple is that people are responsible for their own behavior."

Heaven forbid that I be condescending towards someone posting obtuse nonsense under the handle "Anonymous". I'm sorry if I didn't accord you the appropriate respect.

"Either way, they are responsible for that behavior because they are the ones doing it. It's not that complicated."

Of course people are responsible for their own behavior. That does not mean they are to blame for the problems of others though.

Anonymous said...

Besides -- why would a woman be "too afraid to come forward?" You would think that they would be more afraid to not come forward.

Would you want to risk being raped a second time by failing to report it?

Anonymous said...

"If you don't think, contrary to the feminist position, that women who don't report actual rape isn't any sort of problem, or causes any harm, then perhaps "fault" isn't the right word."

A quintuple negative! That belongs in an English composition textbook.

Anonymous said...

"A quintuple negative! That belongs in an English composition textbook."

It's only a double negative, not that it matters.

"Heaven forbid that I be condescending towards someone posting obtuse nonsense under the handle "Anonymous"."

The only nonsense is that you don't seem to have any sort of point.

"Of course people are responsible for their own behavior. That does not mean they are to blame for the problems of others though."

No one said that they were.

Social Worker said...

Nick, I get your point. And thanks for saying it.

I think what some are saying (and it's somewhat of a cliche now) is that women who don't report put other women at risk.

It's a mean-spirited and damaging point of view, though I understand how some who truly wish to end rape might think this way.

When it's raised in this context though, it doesn't come across as supportive at all, but as a means of further blaming women for rape.

We can't judge the individual on what MIGHT benefit the group at their own expense.

Anonymous said...

Are you kidding? Of course women are exposing other women to risks if they don't report a rape.

Being victimed does not relieve you of all responsibility.

Social Worker said...

I'm just saying we cannot judge the individual based on his/her circumstances that would prevent them from coming forward.
This, in light of the fears of many that they won't be believed or will be re-traumatized at the hands of the police.
I'm not saying that WOULD happen, but we all know the prevalent fears.

Human-Stupidity.com said...

This article is fantastic. I took the liberty of copying too much of it into my blog (just in the process of publishing). Of course giving you due credit. Asking for your permission to do so, otherwise I will take it off again or try to shorten.

Human Stupidity blog. My blog has other very different topics, but your topic and feminism in general is an important part.
Feel free to cite and copy from my blog, I think I have some good material that might interest you.

Human-Stupidity.com said...

Any lawyers here? from any country?

I suppose due process and presumption of innocence are human rights protected by constitution.

How come the constitution is being overridden? Can one not complain to a constitutional court about feminist laws?