A federal court sitting in Wisconsin has ruled that a defendant in a rape trial has no right to present expert testimony that women lie about rape. Such evidence would only state the obvious, the court explained, and it would not assist a jury in understanding a fact issue that is not within its common knowledge or experience. (Under the law, generally, experts are persons with specialized knowledge, either by experience or training or both. They do not have first-hand knowledge about the incident that is the subject of the trial but rather possess specialized knowledge that will assist the trier of fact to understand the evidence that is at issue, and to determine one or more facts in dispute.)
At best, the court's ruling is premised on a faulty understanding of the modern day rape tableau where many people erroneously believe that women do not lie about rape; at worst, it is yet one more manifestation of a culture that treats the presumptively innocent accused of rape as unworthy of society's protection. Either way, it is erroneous.
Factual Background
A brief review of the facts: Joseph Hipler is serving a 20-year sentence following his 2003 conviction in a Wisconsin state court for, inter alia, first degree sexual assault with use of a dangerous weapon. Mr. Hipler was convicted based on convoluted "he said/she said" evidence. He is being deprived of his liberty for many years based essentially on the say so of his "victim." As is common in the criminal justice system, Mr. Hipler has filed appeals and various motions to upset his conviction.
Most recently, Mr. Hipler sought relief by filing a motion that was resolved several days ago in Hipler v. Hepp, 2010 U.S.Dist. LEXIS 40160 (W.D. Wisc. filed April 23, 2010), the subject of this post. In that motion, Mr. Hipler argued that his previous attorneys were ineffective stemming from the trial court's exclusion of his expert witness at trial. According to Mr. Hipler, his expert witness, Holinda Wakefield, would have testified "that it is not uncommon for individuals to make false claims of sexual assault; that at least one study had found that 41% of forcible rape accusations are false . . . ."
The reference regarding the 41% study was obviously to Prof. Eugene Kanin's landmark study. Kanin's study is one that members of the sexual grievance frequently attack but that few likely have ever actually read.
The trial court denied Mr. Hipler's motion to allow Ms. Wakefield's testimony because, it explained, "the fact that some reports of rape are false was a matter within the common knowledge of lay jurors and therefore Wakefield's testimony would not assist the jury." Previously when Mr. Hipler raised this same issue in state court, the judge held that Wakefield's testimony would "'state the obvious' and dress up the inference that [the purported victim] might have lied as having 'more weight simply because [Wakefield] is a supposed expert.'" Therefore, the court concluded, "Wakefield's testimony would not have been relevant."
The Court Allowed the State's Expert Testimony to Show It Is Not Unusual For Rape Victims to Delay Reporting the Alleged Crime
Contrast the exclusion of the expert testimony Mr. Hipler sought to introduce with the state's expert testimony, which the trial court did allow:
"Before trial, the state moved in limine to allow expert testimony on rape trauma syndrome from Lesley Charlton, a psychotherapist who worked with victims of sexual assault. The state argued that Charlton's testimony would help the jury understand that it is not unusual for victims of sexual assault to delay reporting the assault to law enforcement. . . . .Over Hipler's objection, the trial court concluded that Charlton was qualified as an expert and that her testimony was relevant:
"'It's obvious that this state is one where we allow expert testimony, almost wide open. I don't act as a gatekeeper. I think the argument that [defense counsel] makes is really an argument for the jury . . . As far as the sexual assault, I don't think it is so narrow as [defense counsel] was suggesting. You can only give an opinion to somebody with a gun who sexually assaults someone would result [sic] the victim in delaying those circumstances, I'm not aware of any subgroup like that. I don't know that any subgroup like that has a meaningful distinction in the area of whether or not someone reports or not.' Tr. of Mot. Hrg., June 13, 2003, dkt. 13, exh. N, at 23-23."
A judge in a previous appeal filed by Mr. Hipler justified admitting the state's expert evidence in this manner: "We have found expert testimony to be helpful in explaining victims' behavior as conforming with the common behavior of rape victims." Wisconsin v. Hipler, 297 Wis.2d 582, 724 N.W.2d 702 (2006). Note the court's inappropriate characterization of an accuser as a "victim." Such explanation seems to cast the court more as an advocate than as an impartial arbiter of justice.
A Troubling Double-Standard
To recap: (1) The jury would be helped by hearing the state's expert explain that "it is not unusual for victims of sexual assault to delay reporting the assault to law enforcement." (2) But a jury would not be helped by hearing an expert explain "that it is not uncommon for individuals to make false claims of sexual assault; that at least one study had found that 41% of forcible rape accusations are false . . . ." This, despite the fact that the trial court "allow[s] expert testimony, almost wide open. I don't act as a gatekeeper . . . ."
The difference between these two categories of evidence is that the one category promotes rape convictions while the other provides prophylactic protections for the presumptively innocent accused of rape. In a culture that regards wrongful rape convictions and accusations as necessary collateral damage in the "more important" war on rape, it is little surprise that the former class of evidence is deemed admissible while the latter is excluded.
But let us cut to the chase: to suggest that it is common knowledge that some women lie about rape is either naive or dishonest in the extreme. Our society has experienced three to four decades of the sexual grievance industry's incessant insistence that women do not lie about rape. The public discourse about rape is rife with assertions, posited as settled and indisputable fact, that it is a "myth" that women lie about rape. We are fed a steady diet of the canard that only two percent of all rape claims are false, even though this canard has been thoroughly debunked by several researchers who have traced it to is baseless origin.
Is it a stretch to believe that in the seclusion of the jury room, one or more jurors might have repeated the standard assertion that women don't lie about rape? That they have "too much to lose"? That reporting rape is akin to a "second rape"? These questions scarcely survive their statement.
In short, the prevalence of false rape claims is something that is not within the common knowledge or experience of the average juror. To deny jurors the benefit of expert testimony regarding the prevalence of false rape claims is to permit them to harbor wrong-headed stereotypes about rape while they are deciding the fate of a man whose very liberty depends on their possessing accurate information about that issue.
It is also troubling that the court recharacterized Wakefield's proposed expert testimony. Her proposed testimony wasn't only that "some" women lie about rape. Her proposed testimony would have discussed a particular study showing that a significant percentage of rape claimants lie about rape, indicating that false claims are a common occurrence. But the court sustained the state's objection excluding this evidence.
D. Robert White once defined an "objection" as follows: "[T]he cry of a lawyer who sees truth about to creep into the courtroom." That definition seems apt here.
It would be wonderful if everyone knew that rape lies are common. But they don't. And because they don't, a court decision excluding expert testimony that would have disabused they jury of wrong-headed stereotypes about rape was as wrong as can be.
There is a footnote that is worth adding: in one of Mr. Hipler's earlier challenges to the conviction, the court noted that after his conviction, Mr. Hipler submitted to, and passed, a polygraph indicating that there was no sexual assault. Wisconsin v. Hipler, 297 Wis.2d 582, 724 N.W.2d 702 (2006). Of course, many people believe that polygraphs are unreliable. If that's true, why are men accused of rape subjected to them, but putative victims of rape claims are not permitted to be subjected to them? Just another acceptable double-standard in a field rife with them.
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161 comments:
While I'm no expert on expert witnesses, perhaps a better ruling would be that neither expert should have been allowed to testify.
Also, any case that is entirely "he said/she said" shouldn't have been prosecuted in the first place.
Anon at 8:14: if I thought it was "common knowledge" that jurors know false rape claims are common, I would agree with you that Mr. Hipler's expert testimony was properly excluded. But I do not agree with that, and we have overwhelming evidence on this website to show that at least some people believe women DON'T lie about rape. It is only natural that some believe believe that since they are inundated with that message.
If someone were sued based on a claim that his exotic pet bit a child, and if it were widely (but erroneously) believed that such exotic pets do NOT bite human beings, don't you think it would be helpful for the jury to hear from an expert to say that IT IS COMMON FOR THESE EXOTIC PETS TO BITE HUMAN BEINGS? Of course it would.
P.S. I agree with Anon at 8:14 on the "he said/she said" aspect of his/her comment: so long as the accused presents a plausible explanation, it is unjust for a D.A. to "roll the dice" with the male's life by leaving the question of his fate up to a possibly unreliable jury.
Archivist: since the purpose of expert testimony is to help the jurors understand something they don't know, of course Wakefield's testimony should have been admitted. Hell, this entire blog is dedicated to spreading the truth about the very issue that the court said was common knowledge! If it was common knowledge, we wouldn't need this blog!
I suspect that the following groups of people know that false rape accusations are common.
1/ Police
2/ Lawyers
3/ Judges
I suspect that the following groups of people do not know that false rape accusations are common.
4/ Everyone else on the planet
So what this issue is really about is a question of expert knowledge and experience on one part, the judiciary, being ASSUMED, with NO BASIS IN FACT, to be held by another part, the Jurors, who of course are selected from group 4 above.
Take it to the Supremes boyo
I don't see a double standard between not allowing the defendant to use an "expert" to say "41% of forcible rape accusations are false " and allowing the prosecution to report on the psychological trauma rape can have on a victim, even causing them to wait to take legal action.
Sharing with the jury the psychological damage of rape helps them understand what they may not know about rape. That it's not just a sex crime. It's a crime of power and control. And that it takes a devastating, psychological toll on the victims. Telling the jury that "41%" of women have lied about a crime like this in the past doesn't do anything. How do the statistics relate to the actual crime? Has the woman in the case lied in a previous case?
And where does this "expert" information even come from?
Miss Magenta, at the risk of repeating what we've already said: imagine a hypothetical case dealing with an alleged dog bite where the defense is "my dog didn't bite him -- it must have been another dog." If it is common, but erroneous, knowledge that, for example, this particular breed of dog does not bite humans, don't you think it would be beneficial to the jury to hear from an expert that the common knowledge is wrong -- that this particular breed of dog commonly bites humans?
Same thing here.
As for your suggestion that rape is a crime of power and control, that misguided view dates to the mid-70s and is a shaky attempt to transmogrify rape into a de facto hate crime against women. It is akin to saying "robbery is a crime of power and control." Which, in a sense, is partly true. But robbery is more a crime where the robbers want someone's money or other valuables.
As for where this information comes from, go read Dr. Gross' report as a primer, and stop trolling here without knowing what the hell you are talking about.
Miss Magenta - "And where does this "expert" information even come from?"
A peer-reviewed study by an academic. Now, where does the information that it is "normal" for victims to wait before reporting come from? Her personal experience? Do you know of a published, peer-reviewed study on the subject?
I don't doubt that it is true that some do wait, and agonize for some time prior to reporting. But, we also know that a great many women DO lie about having been raped (for a host of other "reasons"), and that some, like Biurny Peguero Gonzalez will continue with the lies all the way to seeing innocent men imprisoned for crimes they DID NOT commit.
Why should juries not be allowed to hear of this reality as well?
Is it just your hatred for the male gender at work here?
Excellent points, sl.
Now, as for this comment by Miss Magenta: "Telling the jury that "41%" of women have lied about a crime like this in the past doesn't do anything. How do the statistics relate to the actual crime?"
I'll paraphrase a commentator at Reddit/men's rights on this post. That same argument has to work re: the state's expert, doesn't it? Let's use your own words to demonstrate it: "Telling the jury that it is common for women to delay reporting doesn't do anything. How do the statistics relate to the actual crime?"
And sl is correct: WHAT statistics?
@ Miss Magenta
Part 1 of 2
Read here:
http://www.falsely-accused.net/rape-cases.php
"Rape Trauma Syndrome is not in the DSM-IV-TR because it was rejected by the behavioral science community of psychiatrists, psychologists, clinical social workers and others.
One reason Rape Trauma Syndrome is unscientific is that Burgess and Holmstrom assumed that any allegation of rape was true and, on that foundation, devised an explanation for whatever the alleged victim might say or do. It seems their 'rape trauma' explanations do not constitute a description of symptoms of an illness, but rather are ways of manipulating evidence in the favor of a complainant. "
"Has the woman in the case lied in a previous case?"
We'll never know, because the rape shield laws allow her the privilege of having that evidence suppressed and excluded for use by the defense, even if she's made 1000 false rape claims in the past.
"And where does this "expert" information even come from?"
The sources of these expert opinions come from numerous highly-reliable studies on the subject. I recommend that you read through this blog in its entirety and you'll find both the answer to your question as well as the links to the said studies and many other things you haven't even considered regarding the subject of false claims.
My question for you is: why do you believe the things that you do? What evidence do you have to support your position??
So much of what we believe is influenced by memetics. A meme is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme
"is a postulated unit of cultural ideas, symbols or practices, which can be transmitted from one mind to another through writing, speech, gestures, rituals or other imitable phenomena. (The etymology of the term relates to the Greek word µ?µ?t?sµ?? ([m?met?smos]) for "something imitated".)[2] Supporters of the concept regard memes as cultural analogues to genes, in that they self-replicate and respond to selective pressures.[3].... Meme-theorists contend that memes evolve by natural selection (in a manner analogous to that of biological evolution) through the processes of variation, mutation, competition, and inheritance influencing an individual meme's reproductive success. Memes spread through the behaviors that they generate in their hosts. Memes that propagate less prolifically may become extinct, while others may survive, spread, and (for better or for worse) mutate. Theorists point out that memes which replicate the most effectively spread best, and some memes may replicate effectively even when they prove detrimental to the welfare of their hosts.[5]" Feminism is a meme which has evolved/mutated over time. Religion can be considered a meme also:
http://www.thereligionvirus.com/sample_chapters/contents.php
@ Miss Magenta
Part 2 of 2
In fact, we can look at Feminism through a religious lens.
From wikipedia again:
"In her book The Meme Machine, Susan Blackmore regards religions as particularly tenacious memes. Many of the features common to the most widely practiced religions provide built-in advantages in an evolutionary context, she writes. For example, religions that preach of the value of faith-based belief over evidence from everyday experience or reason inoculate societies against many of the most basic tools people commonly use to evaluate their ideas. By linking altruism with religious affiliation, religious memes can proliferate more quickly because people perceive that they can reap societal as well as personal rewards. The longevity of religious memes improves with their documentation in revered religious texts.[11]"
If we substitute the word "religion or religious" with "Feminist or feminism" you'll see they are analogous. To improve our thinking in regard to false accusations of rape and sexual assault, we must rely on scientifically-valid, unbiased, peer-reviewed studies on the subject. The Kanin study provides a 41% figure of false rape claims. It is true the statistics vary widely depending on the study. What we know is that false accusations are common (and some of this have learned this through experiencing them ourselves).
You can believe whatever you want, but it may neither be factual nor true. Our best hope is to rely on prior scientifically-valid, unbiased, peer-reviewed studies on the subject and conduct new studies -- and whatever we find must be allowed into evidence and become generally known. Without such concessions there will be no justice for the falsely accused.
I can see your point. I don't want an innocent person to go to prison either. Nor do I want a rapist to walk free.
http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates
"60% of rapes/sexual assaults are not reported to the police, according to a statistical average of the past 5 years. Those rapists, of course, never spend a day in prison. Factoring in unreported rapes, only about 6% of rapists ever serve a day in jail."
What percentage of that 6% are innocent men? Just statistically speaking, a man's chance of being accused of rape seems to be much higher than the chance that he'll actually serve time in prison.
And yeah, I understand being accused of rape but not sent to prison is still horrible.
For the record, I didn't say I was a feminist or that I hated the male gender. In fact, I used this blog to write a paper for my Rape Aggression Defense class earlier this semester to discuss what was pretty much taboo in that class: that women do lie and the effect of a false rape accusation on man.
And no thanks, I will not go fuck a cactus.
Miss Magenta, the comment made to you was inappropriate.
Please note that you are using some trigger words that are the product of politicization rather than sound science. You mentioned the RAINN study. Organizations such as NOW and RAINN rely on the U.S. Department of Justice's National Crime Victimization Survey to insist that rape is rampant and largely underreported. What those organizations do not publicize is that this survey, conducted by in-person and telephone interviews, defines rape as follows: "Forced sexual intercourse including both psychological coercion as well as physical force. . . . Includes attempted rapes . . . Attempted rape includes verbal threats of rape." (Emphasis supplied.) You need to scroll to page 131 out of 133 to find that definition.
Putting aside other problems with the definition, "psychological coercion," of course, can mean all manner of things, including "I'll take your mother to the doctors tomorrow if you make love to me tonight," but none of it is rape in a legal, or for that matter, in any logical sense. Under such definition, most adults in a committed relationship have been raped by their long-term lovers, likely on multiple occasions, and most persons are rapists. We couldn't build enough prisons to house the rapists if this definition, which is almost unfathomably absurd, were adopted. The fact that the United States government would bow to gender politicization by engorging the definition of rape beyond all recognition in this manner should outrage all fair-minded citizens.
Other problems with rape surveys are well known. They are universal in their failure to take into account the following crucial fact: a determination of whether rape occurred depends on whether a person in the position of the male reasonably, or in good faith (depending on the jurisdiction), understood that the female manifested consent. These surveys are universal in their refusal to consider whether the female's conduct or verbal expressions were reasonably understood by the male as consent. Her secret or subjective belief that rape occurred are of no moment. That is not, and has never been, the test, yet it is the hallmark of rape surveys.
Aside from the faulty manner of defining rape which is endemic to rape surveys, there is a more fundamental problem universal to them that renders them wholly unreliable, and worse, dangerous. A simple illustration underscores a point that can't be plausibly denied: if the unnamed young woman who accused Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger of rape had been contacted by someone conducting a rape survey on behalf of what has been called the "sexual grievance industry," and if she had been asked, "Have you ever been raped?" no doubt the young woman would answer "yes," and the incident would be tallied as another notch in the "rape" column, based solely on her say so. Of course, no effort would be made to investigate her claim any further, much less with the painstaking thoroughness that the police investigated the actual claim against Mr. Roehtlisberger. As the remarks of Ga. District Attorney Fredric D. Bright demonstrated, it is impossible to say whether a rape occurred in the Roethlisberger case. Yet, there is no question that the telephone survey would have taken the woman's word at face value and called it an actual rape. Such a process is not merely inadequate, it is dishonest in the extreme. It is all the infuriating that the results of these surveys are used in various ways to effect public policy regarding rape.
The reality is, most rape surveys are the product of gender politicization that seek a pre-determined outcome that is the product of an ideological agenda, not the truth. They cannot be relied on.
Inappropriate? I think not.
As a falsely accused, I can state with more than a little certainty that people generally can be classified into two groups.
Group 1 will ask questions about your stated position, your claims, your story.
Group 2 will ask questions about everything else.
Group 1 is looking for the truth, before anything else.
Group 2 is looking for re-affirmation of their existing world model, before anything else.
"Miss Magenta" is Group 2
I'll freely admit that talking politely and respectfully to Group 2 helps your image with Group 1
This is a clear cut case of misandry.
Scotland: Charity worker tried to frame ex-boyfriend over false rape bid claim
http://news.stv.tv/scotland/173904-charity-worker-tried-to-frame-ex-boyfriend-over-false-rape-bid-claim/
http://news.mensactivism.org/node/15114
"In fact, I used this blog to write a paper for my Rape Aggression Defense class earlier this semester to discuss what was pretty much taboo in that class: that women do lie and the effect of a false rape accusation on man."
I'm going to bet they hated you for it.
"I'm going to bet they hated you for it."
You are of course assuming she is being truthful...
... based on?
Her automatic refusal to even discuss the relevance of statistical data?
"For the record, I didn't say I was a feminist or that I hated the male gender. In fact, I used this blog to write a paper for my Rape Aggression Defense class earlier this semester to discuss what was pretty much taboo in that class: that women do lie and the effect of a false rape accusation on man. "
In regard to not being a feminist: Freud wasn't a Freudian, either. :)
Also, you say you used this blog for your RAD class. In what way? Why don't you post your paper here. I'm sure it is an interesting read.
"And yeah, I understand being accused of rape but not sent to prison is still horrible."
Being falsely accused of rape is among the most horrible of crimes next to losing one's life, IMHO. It is, in fact, a living death if one is falsely accused due to its nature; the moral panic and hysteria that surrounds the issue of sexuality and rape in our culture currently; and that false rape claims are grounded in a lie. In some cased, the falsely accused remain on the sex offender registries even after their accusers recant and the case is dismissed! We falsely accused who contribute comments here on FRS condemn those valid, extant, actual rapists and sexual abusers as much as any other group or individual. Our concern is with the civil rights of men and women who have been falsely accused and with the social, legislative and judicial mechanisms that have become unbalanced and allow false claims to be made with impunity, trample upon citizen's Constitutional rights, and allow the innocent to be imprisoned.
I was of a similar mindset to yours and totally oblivious to any problems with the laws and with the issue of false rape claims before being falsely accused myself. It is easy to say "shoot the bastards!" That is, until the gun is erroneously pointed at you.
Do pay attention and hold suspect statistics you get from any governmental agency, pharmaceutical company, corporation, or someone with an agenda. Media bias and propaganda are rampant and all-the-more these days it takes study and training in critical thinking, logic, and statistics to counteract the nonsensical beliefs that others (and maybe even one's self) may hold and arrive at a correct and complete view of the world as it is.
No one here wants to see a rapist walk free. AND... No one here wants to see a falsely accused man or woman subject to: arrest without probable cause, public condemnation, undue media exposure, imprisonment, or other sequellae of a false accusation. The problem is that falsely accused men and women ARE being subjected to arrest without probable cause, ARE publicly condemned through the media without a trial, ARE exposed unduly and unnecessarily to biased reporting in the media, ARE convicted on the word of the claimant alone and face lifelong branding in the sex offender registries as well as the possibility of being raped themselves or losing their lives while in prison. All because somebody lied.
When the law enforcement community refuse to charge false rape accusers...they are in effect, Manufacturing the missinformation that women and girls NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER lie about rape..when the reality is they lie about rape more than they tell the truth.
This manufactured missinformation by our legal community is prejudicing against the innocent..and it is UN_CONSTITUTIONAL to use state and federal dollars to discriminate.
The Gender feminist perverts get extremmely "EMPOWERED" when the law enforcement manufacture faulty and inflamatory missinformation for them.
I believe It will take the bible belt states to stand against this perversion of our law enforcement community, and the "EMPOWERMENT" of the the Gender / Raunch communities.
Gender feminist pigs (just like the Klu-Klux-Klan of yesteryear) get "Epowered" through rape hysteria.
The organisation that is supposed to protect innocent citisens from these neo RapeKlan mobs are the law enforcement. But Law enforcement have drank the coolaid also.
So now folks, sinse no-one can stop the mass perversion and the "Empowerment" of the Gender/Raunch community...we will all just watch the collapse.
How do the statistics relate to the actual crime? Has the woman in the case lied in a previous case?
****
The statistics are extremely relevant, since most "experts" on rape claim that only 2% of reports are false. If the jury is starting out with the false assumption that there is a 98% probability of guilty then it's easy to see how innocent men are convicted, especially when feminist activists are allowed to pose as "experts" on the witness stand. If the real number is far larger, then the room for reasonable doubt is much greater.
How many people have even heard of these studies that show a large number of false accusations? Practically none. The judge is flat-out lying if the claim is that the public is already well aware of these issues. The only case of a false accusation most people have even heard of is the Duke Lacrosse Case.
As for the second question -- we have no way of knowing if she has falsely accused in the past, and our legal system bends over backwards to keep that information from the public. Concealing her identity in the media shields her from the skepticism that her claims deserve.
Hey wait a minute, i hear all the time that women and girls NEVER
EVER, EVER, EVER lie about rape.
When state funded organisations tell the public that false rape accussations are a myth, and if they are real..its only 2% of the time; when in reality they do in fact lie about rape, and more and more frequently each day...Does this missinformation not prejudice a jury???
It should be painfully obvious to us that none of this would be happening if it weren't for our liar culture that supports bogus "expert" testimony while concealing the truth. This liar culture pervades our society.
My RAD paper was about how rape is depicted on the internet. I was supposed to take the "men = bad;" "women = good" route, but I found the gathering of people against false rape accusations to be more interesting (considering I had never been taught that a considerable amount of people do lie).
I wasn't aware that organizations like RAINN had "hidden agendas." I was taught that it's a program available to help victims.
I wasn't trolling either. I should have just kept my emotions in check and thought about things more clearly.
It is to your credit that you can explore these opposing views with an open mind.
Miss Magenta, RAINN and other sexual assault groups do many good things. They are, however, advocacy groups that are seeking to publicize the harm rape does. The entire field has become terribly politicized (as a lot of things do -- on both the left and the right). Publicizing rape is a great thing, but when it creates a culture that encourages the presumptively innocent to be treated as presumptively guilty, or the falsely accused to be treated as collateral damage in the "more important" war on rape, it has gone too far.
And, no, I don't think you're trolling. Thank you for explaining your situation.
Miss Magenta, on rainn.org stats - ”What percentage of that 6% are innocent men? Just statistically speaking, a man's chance of being accused of rape seems to be much higher than the chance that he'll actually serve time in prison.”
Miss Magenta,
I’m not sure whether or not you’re still a student, nor what your degree program might be, nor even if you’d either have the opportunity to and might be interested in doing some further research…
But, let me suggest a topic for you: The effect of the increasing awareness of false rape accusations on members of juries who’ve served on rape or sexual assault cases.
My thought would be to invite via Craigslist (or other such site – Prof. Susan Barash Shapiro was able to do something similar) those who’ve served on the jury of such a case to be part of a survey on both the out (verdict) of those cases and their own perception of both their familiarity with FRA’s and their perception of how such knowledge may have affected their own judgment in arriving at the verdict.
I suggest this somewhat selfishly, as I am personally very interested in this potential phenomena (I believe that an increasing number of jurors are both aware and factor that awareness in as they deliberate); yet, I also believe it would be valuable information far beyond my personal curiosities – it just needs someone interested, willing and able (backed by a research university), as well as with some established credibility (backed by a research university) to pull it off.
I suppose I should explain further. In February of this year, I was present during the voir dire process for a trial of a man accused of raping an under-aged relative. It was a case in which there was a strong probability that he had, in fact raped her, but their was little evidence beyond her word, not to mention her own troubled situation (her mother had not long before abandon her and her father, and she was having disciplinary issues especially at school). The case was weak enough before it was entirely undone by a woman being questioned as a prospective jurist.
When this woman – who appeared to be in her late 40’s, sophisticated, well dressed, well mannered, confident, and well spoken – was asked by the defense counsel if she believed that women (and girls) sometimes lie about being raped, she unhesitatingly replied that she was certain of it, and added that it (probably) happened a lot more often than people realized.
She was excused from service, yet, just a few days later, after relatively short deliberation, the jury returned a “not guilty” verdict.
Afterwards, the prosecutor (my wife) admitted that she knew that this women had irretrievably “poisoned” the jury.
In discussing that trial with her, my wife has made it clear that she absolutely believes that it is becoming harder to get convictions of alleged rapists (some number of whom are truly guilty) as more and more instance of FRA’s are reported. Most people don’t understand how high the possible percentage of FRA’s might be, but they do seemingly have an increasing sense that FRA’s are occurring; and that is making them increasingly wary of convicting when they are serving on juries.
Of course, her view on this is as a concern for the ability to prosecute real rapes (I’d assume you’d feel the same way) as opposed to the “plus-side” many here would be inclined to see in the decreasing “risk” to those false accused.
Well, admittedly, it’s mostly driven by my own curiosity. But, as there is a very real potential impact on real victims getting justice, I thought I might inspire someone such as yourself to study it more (hopefully, on a formal research basis).
"Afterwards, the prosecutor (my wife) admitted that she knew that this women had irretrievably “poisoned” the jury."
How can the truth poison the jury?
Anonymous - "How can the truth poison the jury?"
That's why I put it in quotes.
It's a term frequently used to describe how some bit of information, provided to the jury (pool) collectively, can end up influencing the opinions of (most of) that entire jury. It's not used as a particularly positive nor negative, but rather as descriptive of how it "spreads" and ends up effecting or influencing the final outcome.
Of course, it isn't always a truth such as the prevalence of FRA that so "poisons". Note that in the case being presented in the main post here, the "expert" for the prosecution was the one who was allowed to influence the case (selectively), making a conviction more likely.
And while the so-called "poisoning" of juries is typically considered to be those things which are said outside of the actual trial, I'd argue that allowing only one sides 'experts" to testify could also be seen as an equivalent "poisoning".
"How can the truth poison the jury?"
I agree.
I see, rarely, real rape cases come to trial, and inevitably it is a guilty verdict.
Real rape cases are NEVER, EVER, EVER, just he said / she said and no other forensic evidence.
Real rape cases are NEVER, EVER, EVER, just he said / she said where the alleged rapist is the boyfriend / husband of the alleged victim.
Real rape cases NEVER, EVER, EVER solve more problems than they create for the alleged victim.
Real rape cases are, in my well researched opinion, considerably rarer than murders.
@ slwerner
And while the so-called "poisoning" of juries is typically considered to be those things which are said outside of the actual trial, I'd argue that allowing only one sides 'experts" to testify could also be seen as an equivalent "poisoning".
dude, the JOB of advocates is to "poison" the jurors...
To follow-up on my last post:
When suggesting it as a "poisoning" of a jury, consider that, in the case I mention, it could just have easily been something other that truth that "poisoned".
Consider the possibility that some other person in the jury pool had been randomly selected instead of her, and that to the same question, that other person had just as confidently, and just as outspokenly declared (quite erroneously), "I've heard that the FBI says it's less than 2%".
In that case, that's the impression that would be left on the the other pool members who ended up being seated on that jury.
In such a case, my wife would used the same "poisoned" term to describe the net effect on the jury.
"In such a case, my wife would used the same "poisoned" term to describe the net effect on the jury."
Except the two percent is a lie; the statement that it's more common than people think is a fact.
Should organizations that are state and federally funded be allowed to promote the faulty and inflamatory missinformation that only 2% of rape accussations are false rape accussations, when the real percentage of false rape accussations is closer to 50%.
Isn't using state and federal dollars to discriminate...against the "equal protection claus of the U.S constitution??
Anonymous - "Except the two percent is a lie"
My point, exactly!
The same term would be used whether or not the information that "got out" was factual or not, or if it was helpful to one side, or the other.
The point (and which I probably should have pointed out earlier) is that it's "poison" because it's typically information that would not be admissible during trial, may be entirely unreliably, and may not even be meaningful to a given case - it is information which (legally speaking) a jury should not have been given.
That the truth of the real prevalence is getting out in this way, causes me no particular concern. It may lead to fewer convictions of real rapists, but, it could be even more useful in helping to drive home the point that women (mostly) making a large number of FRA's will eventually come back to bite true justice in the ass - not something that women concerned about rape and about real rape victims would like to have happening. They too need to be more outspoken AGAINST women making FRA's.
U.S. STATISTICS
Fact #1: 17.6 % of women in the United States have survived a completed or attempted rape. Of these, 21.6% were younger than age 12 when they were first raped, and 32.4% were between the ages of 12 and 17. (Full Report of the Prevalence, Incidence, and Consequences of Violence Against Women, Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey, November, 2000)
Fact #2: 64% of women who reported being raped, physically assaulted, and/or stalked since age 18 were victimized by a current or former husband, cohabiting partner, boyfriend, or date. (Full Report of the Prevalence, Incidence, and Consequences of Violence Against Women, Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey, November, 2000)
Fact #3: Only about half of domestic violence incidents are reported to police. African-American women are more likely than others to report their victimization to police Lawrence A. Greenfeld et al. (1998). (Violence by Intimates: Analysis of Data on Crimes by Current or Former Spouses, Boyfriends, and Girlfriends. Bureau of Justice Statistics Factbook. Washington DC: U.S. Department of Justice. NCJ #167237. Available from National Criminal Justice Reference Service.)
Fact #4: The FBI estimates that only 37% of all rapes are reported to the police. U.S. Justice Department statistics are even lower, with only 26% of all rapes or attempted rapes being reported to law enforcement officials.
Fact #5: In the National Violence Against Women Survey, approximately 25% of women and 8% of men said they were raped and/or physically assaulted by a current or former spouse, cohabiting partner, or date in their lifetimes. The survey estimates that more than 300,000 intimate partner rapes occur each year against women 18 and older. (Full Report of the Prevalence, Incidence, and Consequences of Violence Against Women, Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey, November, 2000)
Fact #6: The National College Women Sexual Victimization Study estimated that between 1 in 4 and 1 in 5 college women experience completed or attempted rape during their college years (Fisher 2000).
Fact #7: Men perpetrate the majority of violent acts against women (DeLahunta 1997).
Fact #8: Every two minutes, somewhere in America, someone is sexually assaulted. (Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network (RAINN) calculation based on 2000 National Crime Victimization Survey. Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice)
Fact #9: One out of every six American women have been the victims of an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime. (Prevalence, Incidence and Consequences of Violence Against Women Survey, National Institute of Justice and Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 1998)
Fact #10: Factoring in unreported rapes, about 5% - one out of twenty - of rapists will ever spend a day in jail. 19 out of 20 will walk free. (Probability statistics based on US Department of Justice Statistics)
Fact #11: Fewer than half (48%) of all rapes and sexual assaults are reported to the police (DOJ 2001).
Fact #12: Sexual violence is associated with a host of short- and long-term problems, including physical injury and illness, psychological symptoms, economic costs, and death (National Research Council 1996).
Fact #13: Rape victims often experience anxiety, guilt, nervousness, phobias, substance abuse, sleep disturbances, depression, alienation, sexual dysfunction, and aggression. They often distrust others and replay the assault in their minds, and they are at increased risk of future victimization (DeLahunta 1997).
Fact #14: According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, more than 260,000 rapes or sexual assaults occurred in 2000; 246,180 of them occurred among females and 14,770, among males (Department of Justice 2001).
Fact #15: More than half of all rapes of women occur before age 18; 22% occur before age 12. (Full Report of the Prevalance, Incidence, and Consequences of Violence Against Women, Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey, November, 2000)
You need a new keyboard, you have typed "fact" when you should have said "fucking bullshit"
You're also way, way, way too dumb to vote if your math skills are that bad.
PART I: Please, please, please -- don't pollute this site with dubious purported statistics from rape "surveys." How many times must I demonstrate the error, the impropriety, the dishonesty of relying on those politicized documents? I will let it go this once, but even feminist legal scholars no longer pretend to know rape stats with certainty. Let's have a dose of reality, shall we, and look at the best, most objective thinking about false rape claims:
Every impartial, objective study shows false rape claims are a significant problem. As reported by "False Rape Allegations" by Eugene Kanin (a feminist icon -- except, strangely, when this study is mentioned), Archives of Sexual Behavior Feb 1994 v23 n1 p81(12), Professor Kanin’s landmark study of a mid-size Midwestern city over the course of nine years found that 41 percent of all rape claims were false. Kanin also studied the police records of two unnamed large state universities and found that in three years, 50 percent of the 64 rapes reported to campus police were determined to be false.”
In addition, a landmark Air Force study in 1985 studied 556 rape allegations. It found that 27% of the accusers recanted, and an independent evaluation revealed a false accusation rate of 60%. McDowell, Charles P., Ph.D. “False Allegations.” Forensic Science Digest, (publication of the U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations), Vol. 11, No. 4 (December 1985), p. 64.
See also, E. Greer, The Truth Behind Legal Dominance Feminism's 'Two Percent False Rape Claim' Figure, 33 Loyola of Los Angeles Law Review 947, a scholarly law review article that traced the two percent false rape canard to its unreliable origin. Need further debunking of the two percent canard? Even serious feminists have backed away from it. E.g., from one of the nation's leading feminist legal scholars: ". . . the statistics on false rape accusation widely vary and 'as a scientific matter, the frequency of false rape complaints to police or other legal authorities remains unknown.'" Aya Gruber, "Rape, Feminism, and the War on Crime," 84 Wash. L. Rev. 581 (November 2009).
PART II
Another criminal law expert: ". . . CrimProf Michelle J. Anderson of Villanova,[is] one of the legal academy's most perceptive and prolific scholars in this area. Her latest work The Legacy of the Prompt Complaint Requirement, Corroboration Requirement, and Cautionary Instructions on Campus Sexual Assault proposes a number of reforms to make institututional discipline more efficient. (CrimProf blogged an expose of UVa's system). One startling point in the paper was that no reliable statistics exist on the frequency of false rape claims . . . . Although the article asserts that 'no study has ever been published which sets forth an evidentiary basis for the ‘two percent false rape complaint’ thesis,' even universities repeat this statistic, and it shows up in such important venues as the legislative history of VAWA. Pub. L. 102-199, S. Rep. 102-197 n.48 (Oct. 29, 1991)." http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/crimprof_blog/2004/12/2_false_rape_st.html
See also, "Until Proven Innocent," the widely praised (praised even by the New York Times, which the book skewers -- as well as almost every other major U.S. news source) and painstaking study of the Duke Lacrosse non-rape case. Authors Stuart Taylor and Professor K.C. Johnson explain that the exact number of false claims is elusive but "[t]he standard assertion by feminists that only 2 percent" or sexual assault claims "are false, which traces to Susan Brownmiller's 1975 book 'Against Our Will,' is without empirical foundation and belied by a wealth of empirical data. These data suggest that at least 9 percent and probably closer to half" of all sexual assault claims "are false . . . ." (Page 374.)
Here's a good primer on false rape claims: Dr. Bruce Gross, False Rape Allegations: An Assault on Justice, Annals of the American Psychotherapy Associaton, Dec. 22, 2008.
Now go try out your useless stats on someone who doesn't know any better.
Even if all of that was true -- and obviously those are bloated, unreliable statistics -- it wouldn't change the fact that false accusations of rape are a horrific problem in this country -- one of the worst problems we have -- or that being falsely accused of rape is a much worse experience than being raped, or that the falsely accused have the same right to live their lives with dignity that these female chauvinists demand for themselves. Our system prosecutes rapists more aggressively than any other on the planet, but is soft on false rape accusers -- so soft that even Crystal Mangum can perjure herself on national TV and get away with it.
More rapists -- and unfortunately, many falsely convicted of rape -- are in prison in the United States than anywhere else on earth, but still the feminists will pretend that there is a vast pool of unreported rapes, somehow justifying the actions of false rape accusers and minimizing the suffering of their victims.
@Anonymous May 3, 2010 6:46:00 PM
Actually it should be "Assertion #1" not "Fact #1."
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/assertion/#AssTruCla
The only way to arrive at something approximating the "truth" in your assertions is to do a meta-analysis of all of the studies and rape statistics for the past 50 years or so from all nations that have conducted studies and issue reports, not just cherry pick from the DOJ, the "Full Report of the Prevalence, Incidence, and Consequences of Violence Against Women, Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey, November, 2000" or other sources.
Statistics aside, the problem is that rape is a horrible crime and false rape claims are also horrible crimes. How do we keep innocent men and women safe from false accusations while at the same time protecting everyone from actual rapists?
Fact #10: Factoring in unreported rapes, about 5% - one out of twenty - of rapists will ever spend a day in jail. 19 out of 20 will walk free. (Probability statistics based on US Department of Justice Statistics)
****
This is an especially ridiculous claim, since even rape victim websites like RAINN admit that the vast majority of rapes are committed by criminals who are involved in a wide range of criminal behavior. Rapists who aren't caught are normally busted doing something else.
Logic. It works. Use it.
How do we keep innocent men and women safe from false accusations while at the same time protecting everyone from actual rapists?
By charging FRA with a felony, 10-20 in prison, and a lifetime on the Sex Offenders List as a Predator. That's how we stop the FRA's which will in turn validate the real victims of rape who won't be afraid to report the crime.
CBGirl
And if there really is this vast pool of uncaught, unreported rapists, then why isn't there more variance in the rate of rape reporting? Ocean waves are higher than those of a shallow pond, and similarly a huge unreported pool of rapes should generate a widely varying rate of reports. But the number of reported rapes is pretty consistent.
Very few rapes go unreported. Many, many false rape accusations are unpunished -- most, in fact. There is no comparison between the way the system treats "rape victims" and the way it treats the falsely accused.
Aside from their other notorious infirmities that I've discussed on this site time and time again, I will now demonstrate in a manner that cannot be plausibly argued against why rape survey stats are useless: For every rape claim reported, as we've illustrated on this site time and time again, we are only reasonably certain that a relatively small percentage can be called "rape." This is beyond dispute. We know, with reasonable certainty, that some claims reported (the numbers vary depending on the study) are outright false. BUT . . . between the claims we are reasonably certain were actual rapes, and the ones we are reasonably certain were false claims, is a vast gray area consisting of a group of claims that cannot properly be classified as "rapes" -- because we just don't know. That's the nature of a rape claim. The claims in this vast gray middle area often suffer from evidentiary infirmities. For example, for some such claims, while the claimant herself might think a rape occurred, her outward manifestations of assent did not match her subjective disinclination to engage in sex, so it wasn't rape -- legally, or any other way. Importantly, if we just took the word of the accusers, we would call each of those claims actual "rapes" -- but that wouldn't be accurate, or just.
But every rape survey takes the word of the accuser without anything more. Some are false, and lots fall in that vast gray area. In addition, the surveys typically suffer from overbreadth because they engorge the definition of "rape" beyond all recognition.
"or that being falsely accused of rape is a much worse experience than being raped..."
How can you justify that statement?
I understand being falsely accused is a horrible, horrible thing. The social stigma that follows you is undeserved and not right.
But, saying that it is a worse experience than being raped is beyond ignorant. Unless you yourself have been a victim of rape, you have no right to say that having a social stigma follow you is worse than having someone use your body without your consent.
If your mom, or your sister, or your daughter was raped would you tell them they could be worse off, they could have been falsely accused of being a rapist?
"How can you justify that statement?
I understand being falsely accused is a horrible, horrible thing. The social stigma that follows you is undeserved and not right.
But, saying that it is a worse experience than being raped is behind ignorant. Unless you yourself have been a victim of rape, you have no right to say that having a social stigma follow you is worse than having someone use your body without your consent."
I can say being the wife of a falsely accused man is far worse than being sexually molested as a child because I KNOW!
Let me ask you this? Have you ever been accused of a Class C felony and you were at work at the time? Have you ever been accused of something you didn't do just for revenge?
So how can you know it is NOT worse? Trust me young lady, it is worse!
CBGirl
The destruction of a false rape claims can be worse than a rape, depending on how far the lie goes before the liar is exposed. Talk to William McCaffrey or Dwayne Dail or any number of other men wrongly jailed over rape lies. Ask them to describe the atrocities they suffered behind bars.
Or the boy beaten with a baseball bat we reported on, or the boy shot. Rape lies have caused innocent men and boys to be killed and to kill themselves (from The Scottsboro Boys to modern day, even a story we reported last week); to be incarcerated often longer than their false accusers are legally permitted to be imprisoned when their lies are finally brought to light; to lose their good names, their jobs, their businesses, their life's savings, their wives, and their girlfriends; to be beaten, to be chased, to be spat upon, and to be looked upon with suspicion long after they are cleared of wrongdoing. It is often impossible for the falsely accused to ever obtain good employment once the lie hits the news: for the rest of his life, a falsely accused man will have prospective employers Googling his name and finding the horrid accusation. Virtually every falsely accused male will be affected by his ordeal. Many develop emotional problems that will plague them for the rest oft their lives; most will not be able to trust women, for at least a time and sometimes forever.
Do you want to read their stories? Just scroll through this site.
Anything else you want to know, Miss Magenta?
Amen Pierce!
CBGirl
Anonymous - ”Fact (sic) #14: According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, more than 260,000 rapes or sexual assaults occurred in 2000; 246,180 of them occurred among females and 14,770, among males (Department of Justice 2001).”
Odd, the FBI’s 2000 Index of Crimes, Table 1, linked via The Federal Bureau of Investigations’ Uniform Crime Reports: Crime in the United States – 2000, the number of reported rapes is listed as being 90,186, total (no gender breakdown for rapes, nor no listing of non-rape sexual assaults).
Perhaps you could provide a link to where you got that alternate information?
Also, are you familiar with the recent report that over 100,000 rapes occur annually in prisons? (Someone else had linked that report here previously, and perhaps they could do so again?)
Anyway, although the numbers you give are more than likely those inflated via the broader definitions for rape and sexual assault, what, pray-tell, do they have to do with either the rate of false rape reporting, nor the numbers of men who are falsely accused?
I’d assume your intention was to try to shame us (men) by showing the number of rapes and sexual assaults committed by a very small percentage of men. But, fact is, this site has NEVER questioned that some men do rape.
Thing is, the fact that a small percentage of men might commit rapes is entirely unconnected to the fact that many women also make false rape allegations. These are two separate crimes, neither having any direct relationship to the other.
Seems your “best shot” missed the mark – badly!
I understand the severity of false rape. Do you understand the severity of an actual rape?
"Many develop emotional problems that will plague them for the rest oft their lives; most will not be able to trust women, for at least a time and sometimes forever."
You could say the exact same for a rape victim, couldn't you? Emotional problems, can't trust men etc...
They're both horrible, in different ways. To put them in the same category and classify one as more horrible than the other doesn't make sense that's why this statement: "or that being falsely accused of rape is a much worse experience than being raped..." struck a nerve with me.
"I’d assume your intention was to try to shame us (men) by showing the number of rapes and sexual assaults committed by a very small percentage of men. But, fact is, this site has NEVER questioned that some men do rape."
Exactly, sl. We do question politicized reports that pretend to know with certainty how many actual rapes are committed, or how much underreporting occurs. For our part, we don't pretend to know how many false rapes are committed, although one very serious study found it's in the 60% range. By the same token, we don't tolerate people insisting they KNOW with certainty how many actual rapes occur each year. In this area, certainty is a lie. Repeat that: certainty is a lie.
Miss Magenta - "But, saying that it is a worse experience than being raped is beyond ignorant. Unless you yourself have been a victim of rape, you have no right to say that having a social stigma follow you is worse than having someone use your body without your consent."
I'd guess it depends on what sort of "rape" a woman has suffered.
The sort of "violently and brutally violated by a stranger with a knife to the throat" would have to be just about the most terrifying thing that anyone would ever endure. However, the "woke up with regrets the next day" sort of rape probably isn't really all that horrifying - especially for sexually active young women. In those cases, the "social" harm is probably far greater than any angst over the unwanted sex itself.
Sorry if I seem a bit crass, but, even for terrifying violent rapes, afterward, there are numerous resources dedicated to helping women (some may also help men, but most would just laugh at any man seeking help). They are not a perfect "fix", not by a long-shot. But, they are way better than what's available to men who's lives are ruined by false allegations.
I don't think a good apples-to-apple comparison is achievable WRT the question of which is worse. Both can be rather horrific. But, the amount of suffering rape victims must endure by no means reduces that of FRA victims.
Why is such a comparison even made, and/or debated?
"Do you understand the severity of an actual rape?"
Yes.
I agree with your comment, by the way. Please understand that this site isn't into the Oppression Olympics. Nor is rape our focus. There are innumerable sites that give voice to rape victims, but hardly any that give voice to persons falsely accused.
By the way, Miss Magenta, please read the subtitle of this blog if you think we are misogynists.
Archivist - ” By the way, Miss Magenta, please read the subtitle of this blog if you think we are misogynists. “
Gee Pierce,
You mean that bit about,
“Giving voice to the men and women affected by false accusations” that recently earn you, and those of us who support you, official pansy status?
I don't think you're misogynists. Not at all. Did it sound like I was implying that? Because I don't think that.
Interestingly, feminist "statistics" such as the 1 in 4 (or 1 in 5, or 1 in 3, depending on what number they choose to pull out of their behinds) claim about women being raped are similar to the number of people who make bizarre claims about having seen a ghost, having been abducted by aliens, etc. According to this, 23% of Americans claim to have personally seen a ghost:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,305277,00.html
I do not conclude on the basis of this that ghosts are real. I do conclude that 1 in 4 Americans is full of shit, and it is highly likely -- even to be expected -- that at least 1 in 5 women will claim to have been raped.
I understand the severity of false rape. Do you understand the severity of an actual rape?
**
With all respect, ma'am, no you don't. You have never been in that situation. You don't know what the threat of life in prison for something you didn't do based on nothing but the testimony of a depraved sociopath means. You don't know what it's like to be treated like a second class citizen by your society based on nothing more than the word of a liar.
It's far, far worse than rape.
By the way, it's too bad Wendy Murphy doesn't have a space suit, because...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_abduction_claimants
The Roper Poll
In 1991, Hopkins, Jacobs and sociologist Dr. Ron Westrum commissioned a Roper Poll in order to determine how many Americans might have experienced the abduction phenomenon. Of nearly 6,000 Americans, 119 answered in a way that Hopkins et al. interpreted as supporting their ET interpretation of the abduction phenomenon. Based on this figure, Hopkins estimated that nearly four million Americans might have been abducted by extraterrestrials. The poll results are available at this external link: The Roper Poll: UFOs & Extraterrestrial Life, Americans' Beliefs and Personal Experiences
*****
By feminist standards, this "proves" that four million Americans have been kidnapped and raped -- by extraterrestrials! Ooooooooh, vast unreported pool!
"It's far, far worse than rape."
If you haven't been a victim of rape, how do you know?
Ms Magenta,
You haven't responded to my questions? Are you only responding to men on this blog? Are you predujice against women who disagree with you, ones who KNOW both sides of this debate? Are you intentionally ignoring me?
CBGirl
Oh, Magenta? Do you know whether or not I have ever been the victim of a violent crime?
And the way feminists react to even the remote possibility of a false rape accuser being prosecuted proves that they are far more afraid of the system than of rapists. Otherwise why do they claim that the remote possibility of being accused of filing a false police report is enough to deter millions of unreported rape victims from coming forward?
Their stark, screaming terror of the legal system only proves that being abused by the system is far worse than being raped at a party (or wherever).
Hate to say "I told you so", but I was right, MM can go fuck herself with a cactus as far as I am concerned.
Her TOTAL AND UTTER LACK OF EMPATHY with CBGirl tells you everything you need to know about the skank.
Whoa, calm down "CBGirl."
I'm not intentionally ignoring you.
I just don't think you're comprehending what I'm saying. Being falsely accused of rape and being raped are two separate things.
Stating that one is worse than the other doesn't make sense (to me at least).
I support the notion of giving a voice to the falsely accused.
However, I'll say it again, that comment about the fate of being falsely accused being much worse than a rape victim's doesn't make sense.
And saying being falsely accused of rape is worse than being raped doesn't aid in your cause at all.
Does it?
Miss Magenta- "And saying being falsely accused of rape is worse than being raped doesn't aid in your cause at all. "
Actually, if it provokes those who are "on the fence" to at least consider the possibility, it likely does more good than harm.
Unfortunately, many people have never bothered to consider the plight of falsely accused men. If they do think about them, with an open mind, they might just be more receptive to the reality that FRA are also a terrible problem and that they need to be addressed, both legally and socially,
Thank you AfOR
Ms Magenta,
What I am saying is that in my experience, it IS worse. I didn't bring it up, you did. I am one of the only women who posts regularly on this site and these men are wonderful to me. They have saved my life.
Being raped and being falsely accused of a Class C felony are two different crimes. But when ONE person can accuse another with only their word and that person is hauled off to jail for months, forced into bankruptcy, loses everything they worked for because of a 'grudge' that is the true definition rape my dear.
What do you think happens in jail to these men? It's not just prison folks, it's county too. They are scum!
Once you are accused of a sexual crime you are guilty until proven innocent. You lose all your constitional rights, you don't get medical care. My husband had MRSA for 2.5 months before they took him to the doctor. That is just one example. I can't share everything because the case is still ongoing.
What did I do to deserve my house destroyed, my business stolen and my health affected? (I am not a young woman) I did nothing...
All on the word of a young girl who got mad at my husband and he is destroyed; he will never be the same again!!!
So Ms Magenta, to coin a phrase, go fuck a cactus!
CBGirl
Ouch.
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/ext/senior/flowers/images/large/cactus2.jpg
That would leave a mark.
Miss Magenta is right. What is not right is to try and present bullshit evidence and assume most if not all women lie about rape.
Miss Magenta, we may not be able to agree on a number of things but I would like to say thank you for at least taking the time to look at the other side of the issue instead of just blindly following the narrative you are probably being taught. It would take some courage to even mention sites like this in a lot of radical feminist-leaning university courses.
And if there's one thing the sisterhood despises more than men, it is a woman who is capable of thinking for herself instead of blithely following their simplistic dogmas.
Anonymous - "Miss Magenta is right. What is not right is to try and present bullshit evidence and assume most if not all women lie about rape."
Miss Magenta has made some rational arguments, and made a number of reasonable statements.
You, however, are an empty shell of a pretender, trying to piggy-back on her ability to negotiate in this environment.
Can you point out this supposed "bullshit evidence"? Can you find one instance of anyone saying that "most if not all women lie about rape"?
Given your obvious inabilities, I can understand why you'd want to remain anonymous, you coward.
CBGirl final admonishment to MM does bring up important questions:
Can a cactus give consent?
Could the rape shield laws be extended to cover succulent plants?
Should confirmed assaults on cactii require registry?
.... and this thread started out so well! :(
The moral of the story:
You can lead your horse to water, but not your horticulture.
However, I'll say it again, that comment about the fate of being falsely accused being much worse than a rape victim's doesn't make sense.
And saying being falsely accused of rape is worse than being raped doesn't aid in your cause at all.
Does it?
***
Yes it does, because the assumption underlying the behavior of the legal system, the media, and other powerful institutions is that false rape accusations are rare, and that even when they happen they aren't nearly as bad as a rape -- which is ridiculous: they happen with great frequency, and the harm inflicted on the victim is infinitely greater than what happens to the victim in most rapes.
Seriously, do you think that having a man take advantage of you while you're passed out drunk is worse than the possibility of life in prison, or losing your home due to legal fees, or being unable to work because you've been branded as a rapist? You really think that?
We need to stop rationalizing and normalizing false rape accusations. What is happening in America is unconscionable.
Miss Magenta is right. What is not right is to try and present bullshit evidence and assume most if not all women lie about rape.
***
What bullshit evidence have we presented? There is no lack of evidence that our legal system does next to nothing to punish and deter false rape accusers; just look at Crystal Mangum and Ashley Todd for proof of that.
We've been discussing THEIR bullshit evidence, and why it's bullshit. Big difference.
As for most women being liars, I have little doubt that nearly two-thirds of rape convictions are legit. It's the remaining one-third that worries me...
Remember: when we discuss false rape accusations, we aren't just talking about the ones that result in a false conviction, or that even go to trial. Many false accusations never even result in charges (thank God).
But the consequences to the victim are still very severe, and there is no excuse for not punishing these hooligans.
I'm unclear as to who you all think the true victims are? the victims of rape or the men who commit the crimes and try to cover it up, say they were drunk, or promise not to do it again?
This blog is UNBELIEVABLE and I CANNOT believe people think this way...
You can go to the Innocence Project website and see who the true victims are: the innocent men who have been imprisoned for decades for crimes they didn't commit.
Anon at 9:43: It is unbelievable how hateful, how ignorant, how utterly revolting are the forces of radical feminism that deny the false rape problem. The vast majority of false rape claims are uncovered by recantations of the false accusers when confronted with overwhelming evidence that the rape claim was a lie.
Instead of parading your childish, inaccurate indignation for the world to see, you would do well to spend a couple of weeks (that's how long it will take) reading through the true life stories of the persons falsely accused of rape chronicled on this website.
This blog is NOT in defense of real rape. This blog is for the support of those who have been falsely accused. The victims of an FRA are the men accused of crimes they did NOT do!
Do you have the ability to read and comprehend?
And where did he get the idea that we supported confessed rapists who use being drunk as an excuse, or who just promise not to do it again?
That would be as ridiculous as giving a confessed false rape accuser a free pass on charges. (Oh wait...)
The true victims are the rape victims, who are given aid on other sites, and the false rape claim victims, who have only this site to give them voice.
Archivist, please don't allow hate speech here.
Hey genius troll: the authors of this blog are dead set against rape. They've been attacked by the "real men" of the men's movement as "pansies" for speaking out on behalf of women. It's just that their focus is false rape claims. What the fuck is the matter with you feminists? You'd bite the dicks off the only men in the movement who are being completely fair?
Imagine if you were raped, and you reported it immediately, went to the hospital and had your injuries confirmed, you had witnesses, a confession, etc... and the prosecutor just up and said, "Nope, not going to pursue it." No reason, nothing -- they just don't damned well feel like enforcing your rights.
If that happened to any woman she would be furious, but THAT IS THE NORM FOR THE VICTIMS OF FALSE RAPE ACCUSATIONS. No matter how much proof you have that she's a liar, the system doesn't even care!
I won't allow any more of that sort of speech. It's triggering for a lot of our readers, who've been bruised by false rape claims.
Anon, we are not the only men in the movement being completely fair.
Archivist: my two cents is that these comments are easily refuted, and therefore should be allowed to stand. I can live with being triggered. That's just my view, of course.
Anonymous and cowardly asshole (ACA) - "I'm unclear as to who you all think the true victims are?"
Guys like William McCaffrey are certainly victims. Young skanks who have regrets once they sober-up, not so much.
ACA- "the victims of rape or the men who commit the crimes and try to cover it up, say they were drunk, or promise not to do it again?"
Has anyone here ever suggested that woman who suffer real rapes are not victims? But, although it's probably way too much for your pea-brain to process, women who lie about having been raped are NOT victims.
ACA - "This blog is UNBELIEVABLE and I CANNOT believe people think this way..."
What way is that? That it's unjust and evil for women to make false allegations and have men end up suffering and being punished because of those false allegations?
What's actually hard to believe is that their are evil people like you who would seem to enjoy seeing men condemned to such injustice.
9:56: OK, and thanks for the input.
I agree Pierce, let them spew their venom. They continue to prove they are men-hating snakes.
I can take it too.
CBGirl
sl, she's the type who was probably angered when the N.C. attorney general declared the Duke lacrosse boys innocent. My bet is, like some of the others, she would have preferred that Ms. Mangum had been brutally raped as opposed to watching three privileged white boys walk free.
P.S. I meant to put "privileged" in quote marks.
Well this has been an eye opener.
Didn't much care for being called a skank or being told to go fuck a cactus but people say things like that when they get angry; it's understandable.
I have my final in my RAD class tomorrow. I wonder how that will go...
OK, CBGirl.
Unfortunately, the word "innocence" isn't even in the vocabulary of people like the ACA, who is an all-too-common asshole. If it were up to people like that we probably wouldn't even have trials.
Read the comments sections when a man is accused of rape or molestation, even without proof. Many Americans even support executions without trial.
Here's one we'll be writing about:
http://courtnews.co.nz/story.php?id=2718
I looked at the article; she got what she wanted, Attention.
Hopefully she will get to serve some time too.
CBGirl
It's too bad all women are not like you CBGirl.
This world would be a great place.
Hey mis Magnetta, what is the story here about the 18 year old boy being beat to death in his sleep with a baseball bat over a false rape accussation.
What about all the black men who were lynched over false rape accussations??
Rape hysteria is dangerous, and the faulty and inflamatory missinformation that generates it should be considered "Hate speech".
Rape hysteria "Empowered" the Klu-Klux-Klan.
Rape hysteria is now "Empowering" the gender/Raunch klan.
Hey wait a minute...I thought women and girls would NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, EVER, lie about rape??
Anon 10:27 Aww shucks. When you reach a certain age, you look at things more logically I believe.
You don't believe everything the newspapers, arrest reports, and TV news state as fact anymore. My eyes have been opened on many issues.
CBGirl
It's spelled misinformation dear.
"Hey mis Magnetta, what is the story here about the 18 year old boy being beat to death in his sleep with a baseball bat over a false rape accussation.
What about all the black men who were lynched over false rape accussations??
Rape hysteria is dangerous, and the faulty and inflamatory missinformation that generates it should be considered "Hate speech".
Rape hysteria "Empowered" the Klu-Klux-Klan.
Rape hysteria is now "Empowering" the gender/Raunch klan."
That's horrible.
I don't know if you've read all my comments but I'm all for supporting the falsely accused. I even chose that as a subject for a research paper I wrote in my all-female rape aggression defense class. You can imagine that made some of my classmates and professor uneasy: a female talking about women who lie about being raped, shun!
The confusion and anger in my first few comments has since been cleared up (thanks to a discussion with my boyfriend who is an avid men's rights supporter.)
The only thing that bothers me was classifying being falsely accused and being raped in the category,and saying one was worse than the other, as I have discussed previously. I will not bother repeating myself because all it boils down to is one opinion over another and everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion.
CBgirl resorted to mean taunts, "go fuck a cactus." I don't really see how that is mature. And though I myself am young, I don't resort to name calling.
I think it discredits your argument a little bit.
Good for you for writing that paper.
I have to say I am very impressed with Miss Magenta's demeanor and thoughtfulness in what could have been a lion's den.
The falsely accused have a lot more support than I think you realize, even among so-called feminists. Women know women lie for various advantages or protections.
The trick is knowing your potential ally's and not "shooting them out of the water" before helping them learn your full point of view.
Maybe it's the nature of blogs, but I more often see rants and name-calling than intelligent discourse.
That being said, I see more of the discourse here than on the rape survivor sites that I frequent.
However, Miss Magenta is to be applauded for sticking through a lot of the crap you threw at her to arrive at OUR point of view.
Why do that?
"That being said, I see more of the discourse here than on the rape survivor sites that I frequent.
However, Miss Magenta is to be applauded for sticking through a lot of the crap you threw at her to arrive at OUR point of view.
Why do that?"
Not everyone is in the same emotional space. There are some here that are quick to anger. As a falsely accused, I begrudge no one for their opinions on any side of the false rape issue. It is unfortunate that some cast aspersions, epithets, and resort to philippics when challenged, but it is also quite understandable -- there are so many here whose lives are in tatters because somebody lied or because, in fact, they were sexually abused. Certainly, it would be better if everyone could respond rather than react -- it's simply that when something is said in ignorance or denial of the facts or valid points, you are reminding the falsely accused and their loved ones of what they no longer have. We falsely accused share a bond with valid, extant rape claimants in our desire to undo the damage that has been done; to be made whole; and to ensure that, as far as possible, it doesn't happen to anyone else. Some here are more vituperative and some more erudite than others. Nearly all of us mean well even when our aggression becomes displaced. A mind is a terrible thing, especially when you're itching to give someone a piece of yours! Hopefully, Miss Magenta will forgive our incivilities and casual readers can discern our intent.
"Miss Magenta" is a skank who has STILL not only failed to show even on grain of empathy with CBGirl (a fellow female) for her story, but who is STILL steadfastly refusing to even respond to or address the issues CBGirl stated.
Now, just for shits and giggles, let's put aside the knight in shining armour crap for a minute, and put our logical, thinking heads on.
MM *claims* to be interested in the subject of false accusations, and the consequences thereof, yet, not only has she not asked ANYONE here for input, she has STUDIOUSLY AVOIDED MAKING ANY COMMENT ABOUT CBGirl's story, posted in this thread, and folks, CBGirls story is manna from heaven for anyone even remotely interested in the subject.
It ticks ALL the boxes, it has everything in it.
And yet MM studiously ignores CBGirl's story, and, drumroll, wait for it, steady there, trots out her allged BOYFRIEND, who, she alleges, is well into men's rights.
Well, that makes everything OK then, she claims to be into men's rights, she claims to have a boyfriend, she claims he is into men's rights too... OK, enough for a pussy pass eh..
Talking to some skank who even participates in a bullshit RAPE AGGRESSION DEFENCE CLASS is on a par with talking to the Waffen SS about the plight of the jews while they are on lunch break from stuffing the ovens in Dachau.
You lot are so desperate for people, especially female people, to sit down and listen to your stories that you have lost the ability to think critically.
If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, but claims to be writing a paper on the effects of FRA's, you shoot it and put it in the pot, yumm, duck pie.
Don't like me bitches? Well, you made me this way, I used to be one chivalrous motherfucker, before I was taught, the hard way, that there are ENOUGH skanks, ENOUGH crap cops, and ENOUGH crap lawyers, and ENOUGH crap judges, that those ways are suicide in this day and age.
Anyone siding with the skank is turning their back on one of our own, CBGirl...
"Maybe it's the nature of blogs, but I more often see rants and name-calling than intelligent discourse."
I'd defy you to locate another site that examines these issues with the depth or seriousness of this site. Some of the comments are very intelligent and the posts are second to none.
"Didn't much care for being called a skank or being told to go fuck a cactus but people say things like that when they get angry; it's understandable."
It's explainable, but imho, it's not justifiable. There is no excuse for name-calling.
"I think it discredits your argument a little bit."
I agree, not that it logically invalidates arguments, but it makes the those making personal attacks seem less rational.
I am one of several mothers who have posted on this site describing both their daughter's rape AND son's false rape accusation.
I'll be brief, MM, this is NOT a 'story' I care to repeat.
My daughter was raped, and the rapist simply got away with it. It was horrible, it was damaging. Several years of alcolism ensued, she nearly killed herself driving drunk before she pulled herself together. She is healthy, happily married to a wonderful supportive man, and mother of a newborn baby girl. It took a long time for her to heal, but she has.
My son's false accuser also readily was believed, my son convicted of a crime he did not commit based on not even the tiniest shred of evidence. For over a decade now, his name has been publicly listed as a sex offender, causing him to be refused jobs and a place to live. He is afraid to marry - the woman he loves does not deserve to be hounded and subjected to the abuse a woman who stands by person listed as a sex offender endures. He fears bringing a child into his world - it's unthinkable. He was beaten up while in jail, put through years of 'therapy' where he was forced to admit the accusation, then punished when he could not pass a polygraph admitting the lie. He has come dangerously close to being returned to prison for it.
Our family lost our savings and have never recovered fianancially from the legal fees accrued.
Far from moving on, or being allowed to 'heal', it gets worse with each passing year. New unConstitutional laws are being passed every day. He has been forced to register from once a year to four times. Every day is a fresh hell - it never gets better with time, it gets worse.
He has nothing to look forward but hopelessness, nothing to live for but further punishment.
Tell me, Miss Magenta, I am wrong to think a false accusation is worse?
Walk a mile in those leg irons, and then we'll talk about how much worse one is over the other.
(Don't forget, my dear - women have been falsely accused and wrongly convicted as well. Read what happened to THEM.)
"And saying being falsely accused of rape is worse than being raped doesn't aid in your cause at all."
Well, since false rape accusations often lead to rape - multiple times - it would be silly to say that they are not as bad as a single rape.
More rape is worse than less rape. Do you comprehend?
Not to mention the vast number of other abuses that falsely accused are subject to.
E.g. rape plus being attacked with razors is worse than rape alone.
Comprehend?
Of course, if you believe that women are more important than men, there's no issue.
A single rape of a woman would obviously be worse than decades of imprisonment, decades of gang-rape, decades of attacks with boiling water and razor blades, being forced to register as a sex offender for the rest of your life, being hated and spat on by your community, having your life destroyed, being unable to get a decent job anywhere, for doing no crime at all.
Yes, if you believe that women are more valuable than men, then of course, the rape of a woman is worse than a false rape accusation, even when the latter includes multiple rapes.
Anon-
So, after years of having the feminist vision of rape shoved into my thoughts, I think I finally understand the other side to the story.
One of the main objectives that I've learned this semester through Take Back the Night and my RAD class is survival.
I see it in my RAD manual. I see it in the brochures and on the RAINN website.
Victims of rape do have the ability to survive, to overcome a traumatic, awful incident. And the have abundant amounts of resources to them.
The falsely accused don't have the liberty to surive- society shuts them out.
"Talking to some skank who even participates in a bullshit RAPE AGGRESSION DEFENCE CLASS is on a par with talking to the Waffen SS about the plight of the jews while they are on lunch break from stuffing the ovens in Dachau."
I'm not a skank.
Rape Aggression Defense is not a bullshit class. It's not all about men bad, women good. It's about finding strength within yourself you didn't know you had through the techniques you are taught. A lot of women who take the class are survivors of rape and use the class as a part of the healing process.
There is also RAD classes for men and children.
Anyways, what I'm trying to say is I was wrong and ignorant about the falsely accused being better off than rape victims.
And yeah, I feel sort of stupid for having to admit that I was wrong, but I don't mind admitting it.
Because, like I said, rape victims have everything supporting their "survival" while the falsely accused have everything working against them.
This needs more awareness. Like a lot more. I think if this awareness could be spread on college campuses, well, that would be a start.
Miss Magenta, thanks for your comment. Don't worry about being wrong. I am wrong a lot. I became involved in this issue after discovering I was wrong.
By the way, I don't approve of name calling, but I can't keep up with all the comments this site receives, so when I saw you were doing a good job defending yourself, I let some of it go.
Note to all: the perfect is the enemy of the good.
Let's not insult and pick apart people who come here to sincerely listen to what we have to say, and to consider this problem with an open mind.
It is VERY IMPORTANT that we do not do this.
Trolls? Of course. Go nuts at them. But make sure you know the difference.
Not alienating potential supporters is the #1 rule of effective activism for ANY cause.
To clarify,
"Trolls? Of course. Go nuts at them. But make sure you know the difference."
What I mean is, if a troll posts, then yeah, say what you like ...
... but don't apply the same standard to potential or actual supporters.
So, so far we have had two women IN THIS THREAD tell this skank how false accusations are worse than rapes, from their own FACTUAL experiences.
The skank still has not engaged with either of these WOMEN, has not empathised with either of these WOMEN, has not IN ANY WAY addressed the comments made by these women.
No, she instead spend her time TRYING TO INDOCTRINATE US about how good these rape classes are, how good these take back the night marches are, how these movements are chock full of rape victims, because, after all, rape is just so common donchaknow.
So, yeah, let's forget all that and be nice to the skank so we get one more woman ALLEGEDLY onboard, while disenfranchising and alienating the two women who are already here.
What do you think, CBGirl and the anon woman haven't suffered enough, maybe cathy comins was right, maybe they need to suck it up some more, as do we male falsely accused, that's far more worthy and important than sucking up to some skank who is so transparently ONE OF THE ENEMY that I can't believe no-one else can see it.
y'all non-females out there want to think on the fact that the only two females to comment have NOT sided with the skank, think gaydar...
calling it like I see it.
"The skank still has not engaged with either of these WOMEN, has not empathised with either of these WOMEN, has not IN ANY WAY addressed the comments made by these women."
While there is no evidence that she is a skank, it would be irrelevant anyway.
She did admit that she was wrong.
"The skank still has not engaged with either of these WOMEN, has not empathised with either of these WOMEN, has not IN ANY WAY addressed the comments made by these women."
I figure we can go all agro on MM and humiliate her, or we can encourage her to see the other side of the argument. I don't agree with the Bush-ian "them that's not for us is against us" mentality. What cannot be accomplished with aggression we can attain through subversion of feminist ideas by turning into advocates the fence-sitters and those being indoctrinated in gender feminist nonsense. MM is highly likely to not be over 30 years old and may not even yet be 20 years old. Being ignorant is not wrong, but staying that way is. And she did just say:
"So, after years of having the feminist vision of rape shoved into my thoughts, I think I finally understand the other side to the story."
As my dad used to say in regard to managing project team members:
"You can't call them a bunch of twinks today and expect them to help you tomorrow."
As a falsely accused, I'll forgive her for her ignorance. Some of our best advocates may yet come from the gender feminist ranks when they see things as they are and not through a lens of bias, prejudice, propaganda and feminist indoctrination.
It is a perversion of our justice system that has enabled this explosion of false rape accussations over the last decade.
It will get worse before it gets better. It will keep getting worse till the perversion in our legal system gets corrected.
Exactly, Anon.
"Some of our best advocates may yet come from the gender feminist ranks when they see things as they are and not through a lens of bias, prejudice, propaganda and feminist indoctrination."
Future possibilities, slim to none possibilities at that.
And the price?
Letting these possible future allies treat CURRENT, ACTUAL, TRUE BELIEVERS like CBGirl like shit.
Letting these possible future allies preach to CURRENT, ACTUAL, VICTIMS about the "good" done by rape classes, wimmins studies, take back the night marches, and just how many of these wimmin are allegedly rape victims.
This FRA is siding with the current, true, actual believers like CBGirl et al.
Not some skank today, mebbe if it suits her, snowball in hell, future possibly ally.
The goal here is growth. We want to change the way society thinks about rape -- we want people to reserve the use of that word for when it is really necessary. And we want the presumptively innocent who too often were falsely accused to be treated with more respect.
But I don't have all the answers, and it is arrogant for me to think I can't stand any growth.
When I started this, I had no idea that actual rape victims loathe and despise false accusations, and for that reason and others, it soon became apparent that we were allied with women on crucial issues. Hence the subtitle of this blog. That wasn't an effort to pander to anyone; that was an effort to grow, to burst free of the gender divisiveness that marks too many sites.
If Miss M experienced some growth here, as I think she did, I hope we all did, too. The idea isn't to insist we're right. The idea is to really BE right. And getting to "right" is a process. Nobody has a monopoly on "right."
P.S. AfOR, that's not to say I think you're wrong. You need to do what you need to do. I, myself, am happy with incremental growth without moving the world. I tried the latter, and it's too heavy.
Our greatest Allies against false Rape accusations should be coming from the church.
"Though shalt not present false witness".
Rape hysteria, and the RapeKlan marches on universities campuses around the country are "Empowering" the Gender/Raunch community. Maybe society will have to get sick of hearing these "Empowered" perverts.
A few bad apples always ruins it for everyone. Some girls lie, all girls are liars.
That's how AfOR thinks at least.
And if someone who has been falsely accused is going to degrade me for being a female (thus a skank), accuse me of lying, and "preaching" about the good rape and woman studies classes do, why shoud I want to help people like him?
Yeah, I think a class that helps prevent a woman/man/child from becoming a rape victim is a good class.
Yeah, I think take back the night or whatever is a good cause because rape does exists. And it's good to spread awarness and let victims know they are not alone. Not every victim is lying, you know.
And if they had an event that supported the falsely accused, well I think that would be a great idea. What if the falsely accused had their own take back the night? Their own march and rally to show the public awareness that THIS is a problem you need to be aware of, that it's not right.
I'm only nineteen. I still have around four years left of college. If you want to see awareness spread, the best bet is to bring it to the college campuses. So, so, so many men are falsely accused on college campuses. You know that.
But, AfOR, if you're going to treat me like shit, why would I want to help you and your cause?
Because what happened to you isn't right. That's why.
Go ahead and fire off your insults. I believe I'm done here.
Edited- for typos.
Thank you AfOR for your Chivalry. You mentioned in this thread that you were no longer Chivalous. You are. You have taken up for me to a great extent and for that I thank you. I have read your comments to my husband and he is smiling at the support.
As far as MM, I apologize for telling her to Fuck a Cactus. Before this nightmare started I considered myself a Christian. I no longer deserve that honor.
I no longer have faith that God takes care of his followers. I believe now that he does watch but doesn't help us. All the praying in the world does not help. He just doesn't care. He is supposed to have the power to do anything. I don't blame him for this situation but I do blame Him for not stopping it before now. So, that's where i am spiritually.
As far as AfOR's anger, I understand it. Those of us who are in the midst of FRA are living in hell over and over every day with no end in sight. You look at everyone wondering what they think and if they too are going to be making an FRA or are you going to be framed for something else since this case is crumbling.
The hell never ends. I am too old to deal with this kind of crap!
CBGirl
@ Archivist
Hey, I have no difficulties with you, or for that matter with the opinions expressed by slwerner or snark.
For myself, I see the price of courting the likes of MM as being shitting on the likes of CBGirl, and that just isn't on the cards for me.
I'm not trying to dictate how this blog, or you, or slwerner, or snark, or anyone else, should feel and act.
I am however trying to state WHY I think MM is a skank, it's not just misogyny, she just doesn't seem in the LEAST bit genuine, which I could put down to a tx/rx error.
What I can't put down is how she has treated CBGirl and the other anon lady, both before and most notably AFTER the told her their stories.
the snarks and slwerners of this world are what the FRA movement needs, they are the life blood, muscle and sinew, but my brothers and sisters and the likes of scott and cbgirl, and they are better people than me because they all just turned the other cheek to MM's frankly insulting and ignorant and hurtful attitude, but me, I'm the loudmouth, I won't go quietly into the good night, and frankly the likes of MM are too dense to see good people turning the other cheek, they just trot out the usual "well, big ben must have done SOMETHING to piss her off"
Still, 130 comments shows that dialogue is taking place, so from that metric this is a successful thread.
"A few bad apples always ruins it for everyone. Some girls lie, all girls are liars.
That's how AfOR thinks at least.
And if someone who has been falsely accused is going to degrade me for being a female (thus a skank), accuse me of lying, and "preaching" about the good rape and woman studies classes do, why shoud I want to help people like him?"
MM, please read this carefully.
And see if you can spot what is wrong with it.
Firstly, AfOR doesn't think that all women lie, but as a falsely accused I don't think anyone can legitimately blame him for being suspicious. I'M suspicious and I haven't yet been falsely accused.
But in your somewhat warped view of the situation, you have criticised AfOR for hating all women for a bad experience with one.
But THEN, you ask why YOU should care about the falsely accused - because of a bad experience with ONE.
I know that logic is besmirched in women's studies classes - because feminists tend to LOSE when subject to logical scrutiny.
But please, concede the contradiction in your thought.
Me me, pick me Chef, I know the answer!
CBGirl
Justice has nothing to do with it. Truth has nothing to do with it.
Someone pisses you off and you will 'get them'. Why shouldn't you? They were an ass to you so shouldn't they pay? Like 20-life? That will teach them not to be disrespectful to a woman!!
"you" is a hypothetical "You" explaining my answer to Chef and is not directed at any particular person.
CBGirl
@ MM
See, this is why you're a skank.
All you can see is that my attitude can only be that all women lie, "all women" includes CBGirl and the other anon lady, so I think they are lying too huh?
You're still taking about bullshit propaganda movements that VASTLY artificially inflate rape numbers, and you tell me this is somehow to my benefit.
So you're 19 now, everything you say is designed to get everyone else to cut you some slack, others haven't caught on to this, I have.
Help?
Girl, you don't have the brains to help yourself, much less me or anyone else.
You're no more than a fucking liability.
if you GENUINELY GIVE A SHIT about a subject, ANY SUBJECT ON THE PLANET, you have to learn first and foremost to shut the fuck up, then go to someone who knows, then LISTEN.
THEN
AFTER ALL THIS
You can start to ask intelligent questions, based upon what your have heard and learned to date, THEN you start to learn.
How do I know you're stupid?
Because you ALREADY KNOW the stuff your wimmin studies propogandists are telling you is FUCKING BULLSHIT, and you are STILL ASSOCIATING WITH THEM.
Now, pin your ears back, and learn something.
I can show you actual official court documents from my own FRA case, all bearing the official court seal, that absolutely prove beyond all possible doubt or alternative interpretations, that a direct consequence (just one of MANY) of my own false rape accusation was to SIGNIFICANTLY reduce the ability of the Police, of the Forensic Lab, and the Legal system as a whole, to prosecute a known and convicted FEMALE paedophile, who got her jollies sticking table utensils, biros, and assorted objects up the vaginas and anuses of girls less than 4 years old, and up the anuses of boys less than 4 years old, and we are talking 2 dozen plus victims.
That is just ONE consequence of just ONE false rape accusation.
When I see a full and frank and sincere apology to CBGirl and the anon lady, THEN I will start to cut you some slack, and reconsider calling you a skank.
Meantime, you think about those dozens of under 4 year old children with knives and forks and pens stuck in the privates.
That's what your bullshit propoganda is ACTUALLY SUPPORTING IN FACT
Fuck, it makes me puke and I'm the fucking falsely accused by the lying cunt who actually in fact supported that paedophile, maybe if I'd just killed my FRA a couple of years ago I could have ensured that the forces of law had an extra few hundred man hours and million dollars or so to PROPERLY investigate and prosecute that paedo bitch.
Maybe some of that state money could have gone to her fucking victims.
Dude, I am 100,000,000% on the side of the falsely accused, including you -- but it's major stupid to be talking about how you should have killed your liar. That's a huge no-no, that could get you and those around you into a world of shit.
About MM, I think you're overreacting; if she came in here and said that false accusations were no big deal or that she would commit one (as some female trolls have in the past) then I could understand calling her names over and over again, but just for disputing some points or failing to answer a question I think it's over the top. I'm not being chivalrous; just pointing out that this isn't the best way to make converts.
She says she has an MRA boyfriend -- why doubt it? It can happen. A lot of women are attracted to men who have the guts to demand their rights. Feminized men can be a bunch of whiny, unattractive wimps.
"She says she has an MRA boyfriend -- why doubt it? It can happen."
An MRA and feminist dating? O LAWD.
But is she a feminist?
Regardless, it would make a great sitcom.
Episode 1
*MRA rolls over and sighs contentedly*
Feminist: I didn't cum.
MRA: Who cares?
*audience laughs*
Feminist: Oh my god. You just raped me. You totally just raped me.
*audience laughs*
I'm telling you guys, it would be laugh a minute.
Episode Two:
The feminist is late for work so she accuses a man at the bus stop of raping her to give her an excuse.
The falsely accused man turns out to be her boyfriend/MRA's father.
*audience roars with laughter, bursts into applause*
MRA: Why did you do it? He's my father, for fuck's sake!
FEMINIST: So shoot me! He was the only dick handy.
*audience roars with laughter*
MRA: So, you know what this means, don't you? When he gets out of prison, he gets one free rape.
*audience roars with laughter*
FEMINIST: You say that as if it would be traumatic for me or something.
*audience roars with laughter*
FEMINIST: . . . Besides, I don't have to worry about that for at least twenty years.
*audience roars with laughter*
Episode 3
MRA opens front door and hangs his coat on the coat rack. "Baby, I'm home!"
*Audience cheers*
He sniffs the air. "I don't smell a roast. Why is that?"
*Audience laughs*
Feminist (distant): "I'm in the kitchen, honey! The TV dinners will be ready in five minutes!"
MRA: looks disgusted.
*Audience laughs*
MRA: "You know I hate TV dinners. It's the one thing I have in common with that guy from 'The Burning Bed.'
*Audience laughs*
MRA sits down on the couch -- and notices a folder. He picks it up. It reads: Victim Discovery Pack.
*Audience boos*
MRA stands up. "Honey? You have some 'splain' to do."
*Audience laughs*
Feminist emerges from the kitchen. She is still holding the Mapquest print-out that helped her to find the kitchen. Her hair is a mess and her Gloria Steinem apron is filthy, even though she has done nothing more than pop two TV dinners in the microwave.
Feminist: "Hear me roar!"
*Audience laughs*
MRA: "This is no joke. This is serious. What is this, hmmmm?" He holds up the Victim Discovery Pack.
*Audience hisses*
Feminist (smile fading): "Oh, that's nothing. I just had sex with five guys in the bathroom down at the university so I said it was rape. I thought you'd be mad."
MRA: "You lied about being raped. To the police."
Feminist (nodding): "I hope you're not mad. Do you forgive me?"
*Audience makes 'awww' sound*
MRA: "No. This is serious. I will have nothing to do with a false rape accusation. Goodbye, I'm going out to eat."
*Audience applauds*
MRA: "And you can throw those TV dinners in the garbage -- or serve them to your feminist friends!" Slams door behind him.
*Audience applauds*
Feminist looks straight in the camera. "He thinks he's gone for good. But I'll find a way to get him back." Picks up phone. "Hello? Hi George, it's Crystal. Could you come over, please? I need someone I can falsely accuse of rape. I made a false rape accusation this afternoon so now I need to make another one or my MRA husband might leave for good this time. Hello? Hello?"
*Audience hisses*
Femnist puts down the phone. "You know, I have to stop falsely accusing men of rape. It's getting old. I'll have to figure something else to falsely accuse men of."
*Audience laughs*
Episode 4
Feminist: You know, honey, I was thinking we should try for a baby.
MRA: What? I thought you hated kids. You always said that your career fulfilled you!
*audience laughs*
Feminist: Don't be so patronising. It's a woman's choice to have children if she chooses.
MRA: I guess ...
Feminist: Don't act surprised. You knew I was third wave when we got married at that atheist ceremony and I retained my last name and the right to void the contract at any time.
MRA: Well, at least I'll get to have sex for the first time in months ...
*audience laughs*
Feminist: Well actually honey, I'm already pregnant, I knew you'd be okay with it so I went ahead and already did it.
MRA: Uh ... how did you ... I'm not the father, am I?
*audience laughs*
Feminist: How typical, a man wanting to father his own children and not someone else's. When will you men learn that biology doesn't mean a thing, it's all about what women want.
MRA: What??
Feminist: I mean, it's all about who has the most money. WAIT! No, I mean, it's all about what's best for the child.
MRA: Fuck this. You're a fucking bitch. You're just like all the others. Conniving, manipulative--
Feminist: Shh! Give me your hand!
*she guides his hand to her stomach*
Feminist: Do you feel it? That's my, I mean, our, child! It's kicking!
MRA: OW! You're telling me ...
Feminist: IT'S A GIRL!
*audience laughs*
lol
and she'll look like this
http://shrink4men.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/istock_000004833114small.jpg?w=186&h=239
Blarghh. I admitted I was wrong. I said, "But, AfOR, if you're going to treat me like shit, why would I want to help you and your cause?
Because what happened to you isn't right. That's why."
Willing to see passed the hostility in your comments to sill be on your side.
I don't like women (or men) who lie about rape either.
And I'm sorry to anyone who I happened to offend or hurt through out this discussion. My intention was to never hurt anyone.
I don't recognize myself as a feminist. Especially none of that radical feminist shit.
I don't know what propaganda I was spreading. I was just making a comparison, saying the falsely accused should rally together in their own events to spread awareness.
I don't recognize myself as a feminist. Especially none of that radical feminist shit.
***
YES. Thumbs up. Lady you rock.
I think sometimes women get the idea that false rape accusatons aren't as harmful or ruinious because men so seldom speak out and complain about it.
Anyone here ever heard a peep from the Duke LaCrosse boys? The Hofstra boys lately? The 200 + men rleased by DNA exonerations?
Ms. M - it's not the male way to hold self pity party protests or 'awareness' campaigns.
There is no 'night' for them to take back - it's a lifetime of increasing sufferings and punishments that will never end. You can NEVER take something like that back.
Woman to woman, here, Ms 19 years-old-gonna-help-us-out-if-we're-nice...
It's YOUR rights being gutted here. Not just some man's nobody cares about.
The rights you save ALWAYS end up being your own. Don't they teach that in school anymore?
It's YOUR beloved son one day that will be viewed as The Rape Culture. It's your one day son they are teaching women to protect themselves from.
Not someone else's. Y O U R S.
No matter how respectful or considerate you may raise him to be - as *I* did - NOTHING can protect him from a false accusation.
If you need the guys here to make nice before you'll deem them worthy of support - your "support" really isn't worth a damn.
Do the right because it's the right thing to do, my dear. Do they no longer teach that either?
Enjoy your rape classes.
I found this blog entry by the mother of a falsely accused young man - it says just about all ther is to be said about what FRA is all about:
A few weeks ago I wrote this big long post letting everybody our story thinking that everybody has a right to know who is amongst them. I got to the very end and lost it all. Was to defeated to write it again, so let me share with you one of my journal pages for that week. Have been reluctant to share as I am not a writer and I don't name my journal entry's but that day I did. Changed personal info.
"IT"
What is this that lives with me? IT is dark, IT lives in me, around me and follows me everywhere I go. IT has become who I am, IT has become my life. IT is all consuming! IT goes to bed with me, IT wakes up with me. IT wont let me think of anything else, IT wont let me laugh or have fun. IT makes me feel paranoid, IT makes me feel so alone. IT makes me want to sleep to get away from IT, and sometimes IT won't let me sleep at all. IT makes me not want to do anything and sometimes I can't do enough. I can't and will never be able to escape IT, you see IT is my new life. If I choose not to be in my new life then IT will grow like a monster and take over the ones I love, the one I am suppose to protect. So I will accept IT (my new life) though IT scares me more than anyone can imagine. IT will always be there to make my future frightening and uncertain. My life and future is to hold on to my son as tight as I can because these aliens/the system that is alien to me as an American citizen want to suck the life out of this beautiful soul, they are going to suck the essence of who he is, his sense of humor, his innocent trust of everyone, his future, his dreams, many of which they have already taken. They are wining, they are stronger and they are pulling him away from my arms and perhaps his home. If we his parents don't stop calling it consensual sex, and start calling her a victim and that my son victimized her and help Brian believe that, they will not approve him to live in our home. When he is done with his weekly treatment that will last a year and when they are done putting him through the brainwashing, and the most inhumane violations of his body. They will have stripped him of who he is. I will again hold onto him tight until they come for him again for not working enough or not doing something enough. When they come for unannounced home searches I will hold tighter and hold my breath that he/we don't have the wrong magazine, picture, poster, or friend and take him away again. My son is learning this from the inside, most of the inmates are repeats (not from offending) and say they find any reason to keep them in. My husband said that once in the system it's hard to get out. I will hold on tight, fight and hope to impress upon young people and parents about our draconian laws. I will fight knowing have no future and a debt that we have to die to pay off. I will live with IT and all IT'S forms, and though I have family that love me, I will be alone with IT. You see My husband lives with IT as well in his way and just as intense. We are two separate people living with IT, each of us alone under one roof. IT is taking over our lives as we knew it, how it ends time will tell.
cont...
I took this beautiful baby that someone else gave birth to with the hope and understanding that we could provide a better life. This was my job and I have failed him and her.
How many of us teach our children you will be in bigger trouble if you lie about it, if you lie no one will believe you anymore, and you have anyones trust. How many of us teaches their kids the Miranda, their rights as an American citizen. How many of us have hammered home the Constitution of the United States and the Bill of Rights. Always tell the truth my son, boy did I set him up. It's never to late to learn. If it can happen to us, it can happen to you or someone you love.
I will live with IT because I have to, IT won't leave me alone, I AM STRONG, it's just that IT is sometimes stronger than me.
IT is with my son more than anyone. He just does not realize the extent of the future implications yet.
I want to Thank everyone for your support and paving the way forthose of us just starting our journey
The mother who posted "IT".
I wish I could say something to make it better, I can't. I can only offer my love and support and prayers to you and your family.
I wish i could say it gets better but I haven't found that time yet but I keep holding on to hope that one day this nightmare will be over.
Please know you have found kindred spirits here to help you through this hell you are living.
Just don't give up and don't let them win!!!
CBGirl
"If you need the guys here to make nice before you'll deem them worthy of support - your "support" really isn't worth a damn.
Do the right because it's the right thing to do, my dear. Do they no longer teach that either?"
For the third time I shall repost what I said. And I guess I will explain what it means.
I said, "But, AfOR, if you're going to treat me like shit, why would I want to help you and your cause? Because what happened to you isn't right. That's why."
Let me simplify that. I don't care if he calls me a skank. I don't care if he thinks I'm no good. To me, it doesn't matter how scummy he thinks I am anymore. Just because he feel that way about me DOES NOT change my mind about wanting to support this cause. When I asked "why would I want to help you and your cause?" and I answered my own question immediatly afterwards saying, "Because what happened [being falsely accused] to you isn't right. That's why."
I want to help protect the men in my life or that will be in my life. Can't you see what I'm saying? I said right in the last few comments I want to support this cause. How much clearer can I get?
"Enjoy your rape classes."
I assume that's sarcasm. I don't see what the problem is with teaching a woman how to defend herself, if and only if the need arises. It's not telling women to cry rape when they regret sex. It's not saying it's okay to lie. It's not teaching women to fear men or be offensive towards them. It's teaching them the skills for those crucial moments if they ever happen to rise.
"Ms. M - it's not the male way to hold self pity party protests or 'awareness' campaigns.
There is no 'night' for them to take back - it's a lifetime of increasing sufferings and punishments that will never end. You can NEVER take something like that back."
Again, I was misunderstood.
Maybe it's because I'm young, but I can't just settle with knowing that the only real place this cause exists seems to be on the internet (please correct me if I'm wrong). What I was simply suggesting isn't a pity party. It's telling people, informing people who have no idea about the atrocities of false accusation what it means. It's writing letters, it's getting a news story out there on how people are coming together to fight for the rights of the falsely accused. It's getting more people to join you. It's doing something to get attention or else nothing will ever change. In fact, it might just get worse.
I don't believe things are ever permanently set in stone. If you want to spread awareness and give "voice to the men and women affected by false accusations" then by damn, do it in real life too.
That all may sound completely stupid to you guys. And I might of just made an ass out of myself. But, oh well.
MM,
I have written to every civil rights organization, written to my congressmen and senators and even Jessie Jackson (and we are white) for help. One after one I got responses that they cannot help me.
Why? Because they will 'look bad' exposing FRA as the crimes they are. They will lose campaign money and support from the women who are so strong in lobbying/government today.
At this time, I can't go out there and 'tell our story' because we are in limbo. I do tell as many people as possible but can't actually go public with a campaign.
I do know, however, when this is over and my husband is proven innocent and she a liar, lawsuits will be 'a flyin' and that is the time I will scream out to every newspaper and new channel in the country about this atrosity of injustice against innocent men.
But there is a chance he will die in prison because she got mad at him and he would not give in to her blackmail.
I am very hopeful that someone who is not affected by this torture would stand up for those of us who can't due to legalities.
Go get them and tell all your friends about what you have learned. Let them help you spread the word about this horrible crime against innocent men.
I took a self defense class years ago also but learned that my friends Smith and Wesson were my best defense ;)
CBGirl
A few thoughts....
MM
I will give you credit that you are at least taking the time to look into FRA. Most people would not do even do that.
I read your comments and I think you were just going through the learning curve sine this blog tells the TRUTH not the usual propaganda that is put out in the media.
I have been falsely accused before (not of any sexual offense) and I also have known a lot of liars in my life. And even I underestimated the amount of false claims until reading this blog.
As far as the media goes they flat out DO NOT CARE about men or especially about FRA. There have been more than enough high profile cases to cover and they are deliberately IGNORED.
How do you think things got to be this bad that there is 700,000 people on sex offender registries and the most minor sexual infraction is treated worse than a triple murder??? IMO it's the media. Evey day that I hear the news or tv it's dr. phil talking about sex offenders or "to catch a predator" or oprah's rape shows or Big Ben in the bathroom.
To the people that are falsely accused on here that live in the united states. If you can did you ever think of just leaving this country? I could not put up with a loved one going through this or being on a sex offender registry.
I'm considering it and I have never been in trouble with the law. I just think this country is really going down the toilet and I could live a better life somewhere else.
I can scarcely believe some of the treatment that has been directed towards MM by some on this forum. Here you have someone who basically came to the board adopting a middle-of-the-road position on the issue, i.e. the very kind of person who we need to convince if our cause is to grow.
It seems that some people are more interested in just being angry and creating imagined enemies than in actually making real progress on this issue. Great. Best of luck with that. I, however, have no interest in discussing these things further with anyone who is not interested in actually adopting sensible measures to further the cause.
As for the point in dispute, I disagree with MM's earlier claim that being falsely accused is not as bad as being raped (with a few exceptions: I think the worst kinds of rape are worse). However, this is hardly a deal-breaker in terms of having a respectful and constructive dialogue. As Pierce notes, this is not the Oppression Olympics where everything is dependent on who-is-the-bigger-victim. What is most important, as a starting point, is that others at least accept the basic human rights issue that false allegations are not rare, and men accused are entitled to the presumption-of-innocence and should not be destroyed solely on a woman's allegation.
But to show such contempt towards anyone who is at least open-minded towards our cause is indulgent and destructive in the extreme. It is also pointless when there are so many more hateful trolls who provide a more appropriate target for such rage.
"I want to help protect the men in my life or that will be in my life. Can't you see what I'm saying? I said right in the last few comments I want to support this cause. How much clearer can I get?"
Miss Magenta, if you care enough about the men in your life that you are prepared to overlook the insults directed your way and get behind this cause then you really are a class act. Your boyfriend is lucky to have you.
And I commend you for showing initiative in seeking out the truth instead of just going along blindly with the prevailing doctrines taught in most institutions. It does take guts to speak truth to radical feminist lunancy and fundamentalism.
You probably need to be careful now that the feminist academics and others on campus will have it in for you. You have committed a number of unforgivable sins here. Firstly, you have taken the initiative and shown enough independence-of-thought to expose their BS for what is. Secondly, showing concern for and loyalty to men in your life! Dear oh dear me! That is an unforgivably heinous crime in their book.
MM,
I understand your previous comment now. Thanks for clarifying.
I am one of those women who got past the insults to support a cause I truly believe in.
I now post anonymously and avoid indications of my personal story or gender. I find my comments get more respect and consideration tht way.
I never ONCE felt like "If you aren't 'nice' to me I won't help'. Maybe because a FRA has destroyed my own life as witness to the destruction inflicted on a person I love more than life itself.
Cause it's not about you or your feeling, or me and my feelings, MM.
It's about Justice For All. It's about human decency. It's about the society I live in.
It's about personal integrity - a wounded animal will snap and bite. I'm not going to leave it in the street to die because it didn't 'appreciate' my effort to help.
There is no middle ground between what's right and what's wrong.
We have come through a civil rights battle in this country where at one time ALL black people were blamed and held responsible for the wrong doings of a single person.
That mentality has been throughly rejected and debunked - yet blaming and promoting convicting and punishment for ALL American males for the behavior of a few individuals is completely acceptable somehow.
You sound like my mother trying to explain how slavery wasn't all that bad!
This isn't a battle for men's rights - it's a battle for YOUR rights.
MM: I said, "But, AfOR, if you're going to treat me like shit, why would I want to help you and your cause? Because what happened to you isn't right. That's why."
I know my last comment sounds like I didn't 'hear' you,but I did.
Perhaps you don't realize how terribly high handed and 'above the fray' it comes off, even though you offer 'help' in the end.
You see- AFOR and the others were not treating YOU like shit.
Their anger and insults were not personal - they don't even know you.
I think the anger and insults draws out the truth sometimes - it forces those who post to make a stand, or brings out their true colors and intentions pretty quickly.
Me? I look past it, at the true goal, which for me is justice for all. Man or woman.
I don't agree with everything said here, and I'm accused of being an enemy as often as I'm aknowledged an ally.
I've learned and modified some of my prior perceptions, and held firm to others.
If your intentions are truly genuine, it will come out in the wash.
If not - see ya around...
I have not read all the comments, but let me sort of introduce myself to you. I am a mother of two minor sons who, along with my husband, are being falsely accused of sexual abuse by my minor stepdaughter (my husband's bio daughter). No criminal charges yet at this time, but we were served a TPA. My worries are, what and how would this affect the future of my sons and my family? Prior to this, we had shared custody over my stepd with her bio mom. We tried to provide a stable family for her in the past 6 years (while her mom has changed bf's and husbands at least 5 times -- not to attack her personality, but to make you realize that we have been trying to be a steadfast for my stepdaughter, to minimize or lessen the psychological impact of being a product of divorce). My sons (whose bio father is deceased) are growing up to be good citizens. The older even has high honors and has received commendation from the state for his academic achievement).
In the middle of this situation I have done researches to arm ourselves with knowledge, but I do worry about our future. It is one thing to endure that our family will never be complete now that we know we cannot ever trust my stepd (even paternal cousins, uncles and grandfather are now afraid to be even close to her). But I feel like there is an ax hanging over my nape , not knowing how this will affect my sons and my family's future.
I researched on penalties for falsely reporting child abuse and neglect -- none applicable in my state. I fear that my stepd will continue to do this false accusations in the future if she learns she has the power to manipulate things to her advantage...I would not want her to be walking around freely, seducing clueless would-be victims.
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