Monday, April 26, 2010

Feminist legal scholar to feminists: stop focusing on criminal system to fight rape

COMMENT: The following article is from an extreme feminist perspective. It is premised on a worldview I simply cannot agree with: that rape is rampant.  That likely will prompt many readers here to dismiss this article out of hand.  But it does contain an underlying idea that would serve the interests of the the falsely accused: the author suggests that feminists need to stop looking to the criminal justice system to fight purported date-rape.  The professor seems to believe that culturally-learned masculine behavior is responsible for sexually oppressing women, a worldview that is more than a little problematic, and that this socially accepted attitude creates some murky date-rape situations that courts are ill-equipped to handle.  I can agree with the murky/ill equipped aspect, but I'd respectfully suggest that gender oppression isn't at the root of it. It seems to be something as simple as guys wanting sex more than women (please don't argue with me on that, it would insult my intelligence), and women being told they can only be empowered when they pretend to want what the guys really do want.  This, too often, leads to women's regret, and anger, and feeling used after-the-fact.

But I can find common ground with the professor: if there is to be a cultural debate about what is appropriate sexual behavior, the courts aren't advancing it -- but not for the reasons the professor thinks. From my perspective, the courts are tyrannizing innocent men in the name of protecting women, which is absurd, and wrong, and immoral, at the same time. 

What do you think?

Law professor says feminists should abandon tough rape laws and the war on crime

A battle against rape has been a big part of America's 30-year war on crime, as feminists and equal rights advocates pushed for prosecution of accused rapists and new laws to protect victims, with the expectation that vigorous enforcement would reduce sexual assault.

But University of Iowa law professor Aya Gruber (left) says those efforts have failed and feminism should now distance itself from a criminal justice system she believes is too influenced by the cultural status quo to produce social justice.

"Feminists have reached the limit of that legal effort and the current criminal law no longer provides a meaningful avenue for change," Gruber wrote in her paper, "Rape, Feminism and the War on Crime," published recently in the Washington Law Review by the University of Washington College of Law.

"The lonely voice of women's empowerment cannot and will not be heard above the sound and fury of the criminal system's other messages that reinforce stereotypes, construct racial and socio-economic (structures) and unmoor crime from issues of social justice."

Gruber points to studies of criminal data that shows well-intentioned legal reforms like shield laws and affirmative consent laws do not work. While the number of "stranger rapes" by men who violently attack women has dropped, other, more subtle forms of sexual assault like date rape are still chronic. She said the criminal justice system is unequipped to deal with these subtler forms, though, because their root cause is not so much the deviant mind of a sociopath but the often-accepted social behaviors of men and women.

"Criminal law's structure is to look for right and wrong with no gray area, and to hold individual's accountable for their actions. It doesn't take into consideration larger social issues-such as why the accused rapist aggressively pursued sex, or the perceived passivity of women." Gruber said. "As a result, the criminal justice system struggles to deal with rape because rape is a complex crime loaded with social freight, such as gender inequality and the sexual subordination of women."

On top of this is the way stereotypes of women and rape play out in the jury room. Despite the best efforts of legal reformers, the criminal justice system still sees certain rape victims as somehow complicit in the assault, as if it's a crime for them to have gone out on a date with a rapist.

"As manifested in the law of rape, the complainant may be a "true" victim if she was the object of a violent attack by a monstrous stranger rapist," Gruber wrote. "However, if she exercises any agency in the encounter, such as being on a date, she is disqualified from the category of innocent victim and is instead cast as the agent who precipitated date rape ...., wholly responsible for her mistakes."

Meanwhile, she said the obsession with the criminal justice system has led to such absurdities as a fourth degree sexual assault conviction and compulsory registration as a sex offender for a man who squeezed the back side of a female while they were on a dance floor in a bar.

While this was happening, she said, the equal rights movement in society at large lost steam, in part, because feminists became more interested in criminal law than working for social change.

"Feminism's ability to reshape gender dynamics was lost when criminal law took over," she said, such that "women should not walk the halls of power in the criminal justice system but should rather begin the complicated process of disentangling feminism and its important anti-sexual coercion stance from a hierarchy-reinforcing criminal system that is unable to produce social justice."

To do that, Gruber believes the feminist movement must go back to before the war on crime, when the goal was changing society and not throwing men in jail.

"Activists should turn their attention to investigating methods of addressing rape and gender inequality outside of a system that carries so much political and practical baggage," she said. Social activism, scholarship and political involvement are a start. Pointing out sexist cultural attitudes is needed, too, she said, and women need to change their own attitudes about sexuality, and their attitudes toward men.

"Feminists can counteract the rape-permissive gender norms largely enforced by women instead of relentlessly focusing on the criminality of men," she said. "And feminists must talk to young men about their attitudes as people, not just seek to incarcerate them as criminals."

STORY SOURCE: University of Iowa News Service, 300 Plaza Centre One, Iowa City, Iowa 52242-2500

41 comments:

TheZetaMale said...

"And feminists must talk to young men about their attitudes as people, not just seek to incarcerate them as criminals."

wow, that might be one of the smartest things ive ever heard come out of modern feminism

of course it does seem like she feels the culture driven masculine construct is entirely social and a problem which is bullshit, but still feminists should read this and think about it.

AfOR said...

I think feminists were happy to use the legal system as long as the legal system did what it was told.

Now we are seeing signs that the legal system is finally starting to answer the helm and correct itself, and staring to to false accusations by woman seriously as a problem in itself.

At this point the feminists suddenly decide that the time has come to de-fang the legal system, before it starts devouring them.

For my part I'm going to employ the legal system to the max in order to pursue my false accusers into a life of penury and hopefully an early grave at their own hands.

quod erat demonstrandum Feminists no longer want to live by the legal sword, or rather, die by it.

tough shit

Archivist said...

The ZetaMale: I agree. It's a wise move. If you want to change how people behave, as they seem to do, the legal system is the wrong way to go about it.

AfOR: this stance does prove one thing, doesn't it? All those changes in the law to encourage women to "come forward" didn't really help women. But it sure as hell fouled up a lot of innocent men and boys.

Anonymous said...

"And feminists must talk to young men about their attitudes as people, not just seek to incarcerate them as criminals."

Well and young women have no attitudes?
I think both need to be talked to.
Since the mess ended up on both sides.

Chef Snark said...

While I disagree with her thrust, I appreciate some recognition on their part that they have gone too far and literally cannot go further - without actually starting to cut up and murder every man so much as speculated guilty.

Of course, she puts all the blame on men for acting out their machismo: not wanting to admit to the fact that WOMEN ENCOURAGE IT. Women know how powerful their sexual draw is, and they reward the men who act out their machismo. They are far from innocent, 'as a class', when it comes to genuine rape. Reward anti-social behaviour, and anti-social behaviour is what you will get. It is stupid to assume otherwise.

I think that a lot of women would like their men to behave violently and anti-socially, just so long as that is never turned back ON THEM.

Of course, it is, time and time again. Then she can deny all complicity in TRAINING him to be that way.

Anonymous said...

They need to stop using the law enforcement to harass men/boys with false rape accussations, false stalking accussations, and false domestic violence accusations is what she is trying to say; Because its starting to piss people off!!

Anonymous said...

Zeta male, its great to see some guys from mensnewsDaily over here!!Keep up the great work in raising awareness as to why 2/3 of all college 4 year degree graduates are girls??And wat are the unintended consequences of this "Massive social engineering".

Anonymous said...

She's crazy if she thinks that sexual assault hasn't fallen dramatically. The only reason she thinks that is because she believes in bogus feminist stats that claim a vast, unreported pool of crimes.

But she's right to draw the conclusion that tyrannical laws against rape are not responsible for the decline. Tough measures against crime in general -- and other factors that have nothing to do with the legal system -- have reduced the opportunity for criminals to commit rapes.

And that is who rapes: not men in general, as this feminist seems to think, but common criminals. Serial rapists are very rare indeed, and that is who our current extreme laws are designed to stop.

But she is to be congratulated for admitting that our criminal justice system is a failure that is doing more harm than good, and I hope that the new brand of feminist that she represents can succeed in finding non-coercive ways to reduce rape.

slwerner said...

"However, if she exercises any agency in the encounter, such as being on a date, she is disqualified from the category of innocent victim and is instead cast as the agent who precipitated date rape ...., wholly responsible for her mistakes."

Well, she certainly over-states this point. A woman is not held responsible for being on a date but rather for engaging in sexualized behaviors while on that date. Likewise, there is no condemnation for women attending a party, but rather for getting drunk, and (most probably) consenting to sex with the man they later accuse of rape.

The reality is that, when they participate in the increasingly sexual inter-play, they do have a hand in promoting the initiation of further sexual activity as they are actively demonstrating a willingness to go forward.

Of course, they should be free to change their minds prior to actually engaging in sex, and a man must respect their right to chose to forgo any further sexual interaction.

However, if she has previously willing engaged in those increasingly sexual interactions, a woman must also be increasingly purposeful in her declination of going further.

If, for instance, a woman has been chasing a man from bar to bar, wearing a tag suggesting that she’s interested in sex, and engages in sexualized talk with that man over drinks, then if he goes into t restroom with her intending to have sex with her, she needs to say something much more direct than “are you sure this is okay?” if she truly does not wish to have sex with him.

Just my $0.02

Anonymous said...

I wonder what she thinks about sex offender databases and residency restrictions. What a Kafkaesque nightmare that must be for an innocent man who has been convicted!

Anonymous said...

she needs to say something much more direct than “are you sure this is okay?” if she truly does not wish to have sex with him.
****

"Are you sure this is okay?" sounds like she's trying to make sure she has his consent, not the reverse! But as we all know, in the next police report she was humming a different tune.

Anonymous said...

While this was happening, she said, the equal rights movement in society at large lost steam, in part, because feminists became more interested in criminal law than working for social change.

Feminists were too busy pushing the criminal justice system to ruin/destroy men's and boy's lives, to worry about equal rights/the equal rights amendment ( which was defeated by Miss PhyllisSchlafly. She saw what the feminist were really up to.


"Feminism's ability to reshape gender dynamics was lost when criminal law took over," ( criminal laws they,and their ilk raised hell for) she said, such that "women should not walk the halls of power in the criminal justice system ( too late for them to undo the severe damage they caused [not to mention the lives they ruined/destroyed. They overeached the point of no return]) but should rather begin the complicated process of disentangling feminism and its important anti-sexual coercion stance from a hierarchy-reinforcing criminal system that is unable to produce social justice."

How long did it take for her to figure this out? Feminists have allowed themselves to write checks they cannot cash.

Archivist said...

"Are you sure this is okay?" sounds like she's trying to make sure they should do "it" with all those people right outside the door.

Anonymous said...

She thinks feminists should talk to young men, who's futures feminists have ruined/destroyed, by demonizing them before they were borng? She has got to be kidding.

slwerner said...

Anonymous - "But as we all know, in the next police report she was humming a different tune."

Next Police report!?!?! I don't know what your talking about;) I was just suggesting a possible occurrence. Any similarity to actual events was purely coincidental.

But, I'm sure FemiNazi Field Marshal Frau Gruber would try to tell us that Roethlisberger's accuser was being held accountable simply for being in the bar with him - not for her role in sexualized inter-actions with him.

Chef Snark said...

I'd love for a feminist to try to talk to me.

The last time that happened, said feminist ended up soaked from head to toe in beer as I walked away.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
They need to stop using the law enforcement to harass men/boys with false rape accussations, false stalking accussations, and false domestic violence accusations is what she is trying to say; Because its starting to piss people off!!

Apr 26, 2010 2:54:00 PM
including false assault accusations.

Anonymous said...

I have been very busy raising awareness of false accusation of all kinds while in the blogosphere. Ihave been busty exposing misandry and lighting fires all over the blogosphere. What has more fury than an innocent man who has been, by coercion, forced to plead guilty to a crime he never committed?" Ilost a career and my life. I am still determined to see feminism driven from the whole system of justice and, feminists held to account for the hell they created. I doubt they have even considered a way to reverse what they have caused and, compensate their victims.

Anonymous said...

BTW, I admire Miss Schlafly. I encorage everyone to remember her respectfully.

TDOM said...

"...she is disqualified from the category of innocent victim and is...., wholly responsible for her mistakes."

How awful it must be to think that a woman might be wholly responsible for her own mistakes.

-TDOM

Anonymous said...

well certainly she thinks the safety lock was found out and they need to remove themselfs now or they will face consequnces.

randian said...

feminism should now distance itself from a criminal justice system she believes is too influenced by the cultural status quo to produce social justice

Producing "social justice" (whatever that might be) is not now nor has ever been the purpose of the criminal justice system. The justice system would improve if feminists did as she asks.

It doesn't take into consideration larger social issues-such as why the accused rapist aggressively pursued sex

Why does it matter?

Feminists can counteract the rape-permissive gender norms

If decades in prison for rape and mandatory sex-offender registration for patting a woman's butt (note the author doesn't actually condemn this legal regime) constitude "rape-permissive gender norms", I shudder to think what "rape-prohibitive gender norms" are.

Anonymous said...

The current norm is enabling false abuse accusations. For example: Kim Kardashian. She's been spewing all sorts of lies about her ex-boyfriends to the press in a pathetic pleas for attention. This happens all the time in our society and it needs to stop. No more automatic sympathy for false accusers.

Anonymous said...

I am the person who wrote the soldier falsely accused article. I don't have a google account so I just wanted to make my identity known.

I really don't agree with anything this woman has to say. The other side of the card is quarterly sexual harassment/assault classes. Anti rape/harassment commercials always showing the male as the perpetrator(except for one I have seen). The military already does this and it takes time from training and costs money.

The fact of the matter is boys are boys, girls are girls. The behavior of both at a bar or a club making out in dark corners or grinding against each other on the dance floor(I have always thought modern dancing was more dry humping than anything else). Is perfectly natural, calling it date rape and trying to prosecute a man for a woman's regret is horrible.

I never saw a European woman accuse a soldier of raping her after a night of drunken sex. The only people I saw during my tours in Europe were the spouses and female soldiers themselves. This even went so far as to my first sergeant's wife being truly concerned. My base in Europe was a small one, a quarter of the size of Grafenwoehr or Ramstein. Roughly 5,000 soldiers if half of them weren't deployed at any one time.

Now what was my First Sergeant's wife concerned about? Why there was so much rape being reported on the blotter report every month. She asked a (female I met her during my false rape accusation)CID agent who was a friend of hers. She responded in length that it was a combination of the literature and army commercials on tv. As well as what female soldiers in the military get told from basic training to when they tune in to survivor on AFN(armed forces network). They get told if they are drunk they cannot consent.

This of course doesn't stop them from going out partying with the male soldiers. Drinking just as much and going home at the end of the night with some of them. The majority of female soldiers would never ever falsely report a rape. However if you tell an eighteen year old that if shes drunk she cannot consent. Then you send her someplace she can drink legally like europe. Then her husband, boyfriend, find out she cheated. Or she is late to work and going to be in trouble for being drunk and late(what happened in my case) what do you think is going to happen?

This actually happened to my brother. His wife was deployed to korea he was in fort hood. She cheated on him one night at a bar. She got pregnant and said that she was raped. However she didn't want to report it because she would get in trouble. She kept the baby, they got a divorce and she got kicked out for adultery(still on the books in the military).

I just wanted to point out what was on the other side of the card regarding what this feminist is talking about. It is exactly the "rape culture" feminists say is ever present in our society but doesn't exist. I guess I went on a little bit of a rant.

Anonymous said...

"And feminists must talk to young men about their attitudes as people, not just seek to incarcerate them as criminals."

This sums up the baggage she carries. Feminists aren't qualified to talk to anyone about their attitudes, never mind seek to incarcerate them. They are the problem now, not the solvers of it.

Anonymous said...

It is challenging, trying to reason with people who insist on believing in things that simply don't exist, such as "rape culture." Like trying to persuade a child that the Easter Bunny isn't real.

Anonymous said...

"But University of Iowa law professor Aya Gruber (left) says those efforts have failed and feminism should now distance itself from a criminal justice system she believes is too influenced by the cultural status quo to produce social justice."

Seldom does it happen that once an individual or group has been granted rights (or has ceded them) that the said rights are modified or reversed -- at least not without great social struggles or even wars. I hope it is true, as AfOR has said, that the justice system is "starting to answer the helm and correct itself."

AfOR said...

Everything on planet Earth works on cycles.

The feminist pendulum has swung, it is now swinging in the other direction, and like any pendulum it will overshoot and lots of "innocent" women are going to suffer one way or another.

I will be as active supporting them as they have been supporting us.

Cry me a river.

ARCHIVIST said...

"'And feminists must talk to young men about their attitudes as people, not just seek to incarcerate them as criminals.'

"This sums up the baggage she carries. Feminists aren't qualified to talk to anyone about their attitudes, never mind seek to incarcerate them. They are the problem now, not the solvers of it."


ANON: I don't mind them talking to young men, so long as they stop arresting them. Dialogue never deprived anyone of their liberty or committed prison rape against an innocent college boy.

AfOR said...

@ Archivist.

politicians, eco-warriors, feminists, jehovas witnesses, they all want to talk *TO* people.

NONE of them want to talk WITH people.

NONE of them want to LISTEN TO people.

Life is too short to give any of it to anyone who wants to talk TO me.

Sub-consciously or otherwise, this person's choice of words is very, very, very telling.

"talk" and "dialogue" or "discussion" are very different words.

"'And feminists must talk to young men about their attitudes as people, not just seek to incarcerate them as criminals.'

So not only is dialogue off the agenda, so is the thorny subject of young women and their attitudes as people, older women and their attitudes as people, feminists and their attitudes as people, and of course this "professor's" attitudes.

No, really, go take a long walk off a short pier babe, you have nothing to talk to me about that I am prepared to listen to.

Archivist said...

AfOR, when they start talking AT me, I'll just start talking TO them. You see, I can do that so long as I'm not behind bars.

Oh, and when I start talking TO them, I'll explain the usual stuff about how neither gender has a monopoly on virtue, etc.

Chef Snark said...

The best thing feminists could do to make the world a better place, would be to kill themselves. That's it. Anything else, and they will fuck up and make the world worse.

Anonymous said...

Speaking for myself, I don't want them to kill themselves. I think they should give up their warped collectivist ideology/religion and do something with their lives.

Anonymous said...

All Americans -- regardless of their politics, ethnicity, etc -- have a moral obligation to defend the civil liberties of their fellow Americans. It is practically the definition of "American" to support freedom, even when that freedom comes at a cost.

There aren't enough real Americans left in this country, imo.

Chef Snark said...

"Speaking for myself, I don't want them to kill themselves. I think they should give up their warped collectivist ideology/religion and do something with their lives."

Well, this would be nice, but I'm a realist.

Anonymous said...

As always I love Chef Snark's comments.

Anonymous said...

She wants to go right over any silly legal formalities, and reinvigorate Klan lynchings just like the "feminists of the Klan" in earlier years.

Brandon Webb said...

"And feminists must talk to young men about their attitudes as people, not just seek to incarcerate them as criminals."

Umm...NO. Feminists must stay away from young men. That is, until "feminists" face reality and begin supporting equal rights for all, not just women.

At the heart of the pervasive nature of false rape claims is rape reform laws. These reforms were largely pushed for and championed by women's groups and elected officials hoping to secure political capital.

Back in the 80's when the pendulum swung (and flew of out into left field) States departed from the common law approach which DID place too high a burden of proof on accusers making it difficult to prosecute actual rape cases. However, in the absence of sensible reform the tables were completely turned.

Rape reform laws now place the burden of proof on the accused all the while the accused is limited in how they can defend themselves against such accusations. Accusers are afforded too much protection under these laws allowing many to level accusations while maintaining complete anonymity.

There is no question the justice system has gone overboard with rape accusations. Men across the country have their civil and due process rights violated in many cases bases SOLELY on an accusation with no evidence a crime occurred.

If feminists truly want to fight rape they must first face reality. Numerous studies show that roughly half of all rape accusations made in the U.S. are false and the time wasted conducting wild goose chases and violating the rights of innocent men cost taxpayers BILLIONS of dollars every year. That and the fact that more men are raped in the U.S. annually than women.

If feminists really want to join the fight against rape their top two priorities should be: face and accept reality, and start policing from within.

Anonymous said...

But if feminists accepted reality they wouldn't be feminists!

Brandon Webb said...

That's the point,if feminists accepted reality that alone would solve a lot of problems.

Anonymous said...

Brandon

I agree with a lot of what you are saying.

The way I see it it's like as a man you have no rights.

All you need is someone's word that you did something and your life is ruined.

And even if it's proven that they lied....there is no punishment all for them.