More details about this case. A couple in their 40s will serve nine months in jail for falsely accusing an 18-year-old man of rape. (Of the false accusers, the wife seems to have been the mastermind here, yet her husband serves equal time -- unlike the typical case where the male partner is the mastermind -- in that case, the female partner serves substantially less, if any, time.) Here, the young victim was arrested, kept in custody for 16 hours, and was forced to allow intimate medical samples to be taken from his body. As a result of the allegation, "the victim lost his accommodation, his job and the trust of his family." At least the story calls the young man by his proper title: "victim."
Man and wife jailed over false rape claim
A COUPLE who invited a stranger to have sex behind a Maldon church and then made a false rape allegation against him have been jailed.
Mark and Elaine Noble, of Mundon Road, offered a Turkish man they met outside the Oak House Cafe Bar £20 for sex, Chelmsford Crown Court heard on Monday.
The wife, 42, pulled down the man's trousers and boxer shorts and performed a sex act on him at the back of All Saints Church in the High Street while her 45-year-old husband watched.
Uncomfortable
She then started reaching inside his pocket to find money and the man, who was feeling uncomfortable, decided to run away, prosecutor Stephanie Farrimond told the court.
She returned to the bar after the incident and banged on the door claiming she had been raped.
She said her husband had chased after the alleged attacker and they both continued the false allegation when police arrived.
However, the pair pleaded guilty to perverting the course of justice on October 16 last year and Judge Anthony Goldstaub QC jailed them both for nine months on Monday.
The 18-year-old victim was kept in custody for 16 hours and intimate medical samples were taken.
The couple's false claim unravelled when a witness and CCTV backed up his account.
However, as a result of the allegation the victim lost his accommodation, his job and the trust of his family.
The judge told the Nobles: "A false allegation has an invidious affect on public confidence of the truth.
"Your contribution has been such that when genuine victims of rape complain they may be listened to with less attention and some suspicion they may have made it up, as you did."
Ms Farrimond said the pair had been drinking and taking cocaine and had been involved in threesomes in the past.
Investigating officer, DC Alison Cotter said after the hearing: "Every time a false allegation of rape is made it heightens the difficulty for those women who have been the victims of this horrendous crime.
"These two people have carried out a gross disservice to every genuine victim of a sexual offence.
"An innocent suspect was arrested and had to go through the ordeal of being held in custody and undergoing a medical examination that is intrusive and personal.
"Stigma"
"He has had to endure the stigma of being suspected of a serious offence, only to be cleared of a crime he knew he had not committed.
"Detectives spent many hours of police time on this investigation while they could have been employed dealing with genuine cases."
The court was told that Mark Noble had been crippled after an industrial accident and his wife was his carer.
She lived an isolated life other than occasional trips to the pub with her husband.
Link: http://www.thisistotalessex.co.uk/news/MALDON-Man-wife-jailed-false-rape-claim/article-1944678-detail/article.html
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
Posts
61 comments:
OT: I saw an FRS post here a few minutes ago that was just deleted concerning a world map of where our readers are located all over the world and it was pointed out that readers in South America and Africa were apparently few to none. Also it was pointed out that the US west coast seems to be reading and commenting early in the morning compared to east coast posting times.
My comment: Maps that look at incoming traffic records to blogger or any other website are interesting, but they may ultimately be meaningless. There are probably some of our visitors using the TOR-Vidalia-Privoxy bundle
http://www.net-security.org/software.php?id=253 for anonymity in addition to other tools like Peer Block http://www.peerblock.com or other anonimizing tools which would throw off the results of the map. Further, there are quite a few TOR routers operating on the west coast which could explain the west coast readers' posting times.
We may not do as well in South America because FRS is not in Portuguese or Spanish. When you eventually convert over to Wordpress or other CMS, the language problem could be easily fixed with translation modules. (I'm still concerned that an attempt will be made by gender feminists on a mission to shut down FRS so I hope you are maintaining good offsite backups of the posts here).
In the case of the sparsity of FRS readers from Africa, it is probably due to the lack of reliable internet connections in many areas of the country and the fact that, in places where there is a reliable connection, it is used by the entire community (one computer in an entire village). Also, with Africa, the predominate religion being Islam may have some impact on visits to FRS.
I thought it was an important post and I also thought that those who really wish to maintain their anonimity on FRS should consider using freely available tools such as those mentioned above.
This is appalling. That an innocent teenager could be victimized like this. And of course the authorities took the woman's word over his.
"And of course the authorities took the woman's word over his."
Yes, and No.
Don't forget that her husband also backed-up her story.
And while they did detain and take intimate samples (and, we all know what that means), their investigation ended as soon as they got the surveillance video.
It's never going to be perfect, but there will be times when police act in good faith on bad facts. Here, they were deceived by TWO individuals, which from and evidentiary standpoint, amounts to a victim and an eyewitness (hate to say it, but that, along with the DNA evidence likely to have been found, constitute the corroborating evidence that is called for as a means to reduce FRA’s)
The Police might have waited for the video before proceeding, which would have been somewhat better for the young man (in that he might have avoided the examination), but the subsequent harm to him was not done by the Police, but rather, by the community.
The police didn’t evict him from where he was staying, they didn’t fire him from his job, nor did they turn his family against him. They did not even report his name.
It’s likely that what befell the man came about due to strict Islamic cultural guidelines (especially as it regards his family), which brought about an effort to punish him, not for rape, but for engaging in sex, period. In that regard, he brought some of this on himself, much the same as would (for instance) a married man who had sex with another women, who then cried rape, only to recant later. His innocence of any crime is established, but, so is his infidelity – for which he may well suffer additional consequences.
At any rate, here, once again in this story, the police basically did what they are tasked to do – they investigated. They uncovered the FRA, and the couple is going to jail for 9-months each as a result of the police work.
The harms done to the young man came primarily from his false accusers, and his own poor choice in agreeing to sex. It’s not fair to expect that the police will automatically know that two people claiming a crime has occurred are lying. They are only human, and can be deceived - same as you or I.
Sir, you can't seriously believe that the police would not have taken the woman's word alone?
As for the "the harms done to the young man came primarily from his false accusers, and his own poor choice in agreeing to sex." What can I say? Let's just blame Eve for all the trouble in the world. The fact is, men should be able to have sex, if they desire, without being responsible for some evil supervening cause. Come on now!
Anon, slwerner was referring to the cultural stigma of engaging in sex. That is certainly plausible.
And I agree that the police have to check out the leads. This was an alleged stranger rape. What I don't like is when the police arrest, take medical samples and detain for acquaintance rape BEFORE they've even checked the evidence in front of them. Funny they don't do it all the time -- they didn't detain Mr. Roethlisber for his alleged sexual assault.
On the cultural issue: very true. Many a Catholic girl who was raped has gotten in trouble with her parents, not for being raped but for being with a guy she shouldn't have been with!
I've got to agree with slwerner's views on this.
As Jeff Foxworthy says: "If your porch collapses and kills more than two dogs, you might be a redneck." But if you get approached by a woman AND HER HUSBAND with an offer for sex, you DEFINITELY will be up for an FRA.
I've lived long enough to remember when motorcycles were dangerous and sex was safe. Even what used to be minor, youthful indiscretions are today the newest felonies or have life damaging consequences. I have some empathy for the 18-year old in this story -- he no doubt thought it was a great idea at the time.
Anonymous - "The fact is, men should be able to have sex, if they desire, without being responsible for some evil supervening cause."
Apparently I was a bit too nuanced for you to pick-up on what I was saying. So, let me try it again, explaining in more detail.
If a married man were to have an affair, and was to be caught by his wife, he would very likely suffer some consequences - he could loose his housing accommodation and the trust of his family. You might not be quite able to grasp the concept, but there are potential consequences for consenting to illicit sex.
Engaging in entirely consequential sex acts can even cost a person their job, even if there is NEVER any claim that it was anything other than entirely consequential.
Consider Tiger Woods. The amount of money he lost from endorsements is truly staggering - far more than most people will make in their lifetimes. Yet, Woods was never charges with any crime.
It seems that the harms done to the young man in this case arise entirely from his involvement in the consensual sex act being exposed before those around him, and closest to him. He's responsible for engaging in that act (please try to explain how he is not!), and his false accusers are responsible for bring the sex act to light - even though there was no obvious reason why they would chose to do so. The police, on the other hand, were simply doing the job that the public expects them to do.
Here's a challenge for you, so you might put your own money where your mouth is:
enroll in a police academy, complete the rigorous training, and get job with a police department. then, when a woman comes in alleging to have been raped, you can refuse to believe her, and refuse to listen to her. then, when you captain comes to intervene and tells you to do your job, you can throw your badge on the floor and loudly proclaim your resignation - adding that you will never believe a women because some of them lie about being raped.
Unless and until you do so, might I humbly suggest that you STFU about the police doing the job they are supposed to do - if they want to continue to get paid.
And ANOTHER False Rape Accuser(s) are given jail time in the UK.
Bring it on.
Oh yes, anon
But if you get approached by a woman AND HER HUSBAND with an offer for sex, you DEFINITELY will be up for an FRA.
The UK alone is littered with hundreds of swingers websites offering exactly this, and more besides.
Every allegation of rape must be taken seriously and investigated, regardless of the liars. Until that investigation is completed, there should not be a knee jerk arrest (unless there's a flight risk). That's only fair.
If someone is doing what they shouldn't do (according to his cultural norms), then however that wrongdoing is uncovered, he will be responsible for it.
Wait, wait, wait. Anon at 12:44 --this site has no better ally than slwerner. Your comment is not civil and I am deleting it. You obviously are new here, but it is my view, and I think slwerner's view, that the police, by and large, do a fantastic job weeding out the false accusers. I would prefer fewer detentions, but my guess is that the vast majority of men falsely accused never see the inside of a cell.
Axel, I understand your point, but I always think of the military. It seems every false rape claim ends up getting the guy in trouble for some other infraction. I can't prove it, but my guess is that guys falsely accused will be blamed more harshly for having broken the rules -- by the military, by Mom and Dad, by a college -- than if they hadn't been falsely accused. That would be a great thing to study. It's as if they don't totally believe you didn't commit the rape.
Go ahead and delete me. This site is bullshit anyway. A bunch of whiny manginas.
Yeah. We're manginas. Right.
Sigh.
See what I put up with? I got 'em from both ends.
Archivist - "What I don't like is when the police arrest, take medical samples and detain for acquaintance rape BEFORE they've even checked the evidence in front of them. Funny they don't do it all the time -- they didn't detain Mr. Roethlisber for his alleged sexual assault."
This is an excellent point. I alluded to it in my post, but may not have placed enough emphasis on this concern.
the police did not need to due a intimate medical exam on the young man if he admitted to the sex act. However, if he denied any sexual involvement, time IS of the essence in collecting useful forensic evidence.
If (for the sake of argument) he had (somehow) forced this women to perform oral sex on him, yet was denying that the sex occurred, where he to be allowed to go home and shower, then any admissible physical evidence of his involvement (her saliva) would likely be lost.
The police cannot also know what has actually occurred, and must make decisions based on the possibility that a crime has occurred. They must act on what little evidence they may have at the time that they must decide a course of action, whereas we often have the benefit of hind-sight.
I don't feel that it is fair to judge their apparent missteps against our subsequent understanding of what really happened.
Now, of course there are instance where the police FAIL to do their jobs properly, refuse to consider contrary evidence, and even engage in willful misconduct. I would hold that is such cases, we should all make note of their errors, and, where appropriate, call for their punishment. But, in cases where they may have acted hastily, and made mistakes, I tend to see the responsibility falling primarily on those who have lead them into making the mistakes - such as two people making an FRA which causes an innocent man to be arrest and examined.
In hind-sight, we can clearly see that this was unnecessary. But, save for the couple making the falseified claim, it would have never occurred at all.
Archivist - "Your comment is not civil and I am deleting it."
I didn't see the comment before it was deleted, yet, I must also confess to having been less that civil myself.
I let my frustration get the better of me, and I should not have suggested that the poster "STFU". It was entirely unnecessary in trying to make my point, and I would apologize to one and all for having posted it.
@Archivist Mar 26, 2010 12:56:00 PM
"Archivist said...
Yeah. We're manginas. Right.
Sigh.
See what I put up with? I got 'em from both ends."
All I can say is "THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!" You are one of a small handful of people and oranizations that are addressing this topic. In spite of the trolls, consider seriously how many people's lives you may have saved simply because they found solace, comfort, and information here after being falsely accused. Keep up the good work.
Right. I'm a mangina. Manginas don't have balls the size of Pierce's, asshole.
slwerner, right. I am sure that medical investigations require more time than most people would imagine, depending on the set-up.
I do think that we, as a society, need to start insisting that the presumed innocent not be jailed until a rudimentary investigation occurs on these "he said/she said" cases. It gives the accusers far too much power over men's lives, and there is just as much likelihood that she's the real criminal. Hofstra is a good example. Those young guys were jailed and bail was set so high that they couldn't get out. The boys' protestations were ignored, even when they revealed there was a video. One of the boys explained how he was roughed up in jail. That's despicable. Lesson: do the investigation first, then arrest.
Anon at 1:06: Thank you. We have been told that we are responsible for saving some people. FRAs sometimes lead men to adopt a permanent solution for what is usually just a short-term problem.
As I feel personally responsible for having effectively derailed this otherwise meaningful thread, I first like to apologize for having done so; then, I'd like to explain myself, if I may.
I was initially responding to this post:
"This is appalling. That an innocent teenager could be victimized like this. And of course the authorities took the woman's word over his."
I was perhaps too hasty to focus in on what I believed to be the suggestion that the "authorities" where to blame for his victimization. (the poster may not have intend to make them the focus, but seemed to have left off the part about the two who DID make the FRA).
I should have also acknowledged the appalling outcome for the young man, who is, of course the real victim, and the one we should be most concerned for.
That said, I would contend that, lacking any indication of serious error on the part of said authorities, my view is that the focus of blame should be kept on those who actually committed the crime, their motivations for their criminal acts, and what consequences should befall THEM.
admittedly, I may be over-reacting at times, but I feel that when we divert into condemnation of LE, we lose sight of both the real culprits, as well as the real victims.
LE is not entirely blameless - they could certainly do well to exercise better judgment and more restraint in many cases; but they are often in a difficult position, with little to go on.
If we can logically conclude that they acted in harmful ways beyond being duped into simple mistakes that anyone could have made, I'd argue that they are NOT The Story, and second-guessing their actions does little to illuminate the fact that FRA's are a serious problem.
Police incompetence, greed, and corruption are serious issues all on their own (as is the crime of rape). But the focus here should, IMHO, remain in the crime of FRA's.
The false accuser is the proximate cause of the harm. They create awfully difficult problems for law enforcement in terms of wasting time and in making tough calls. As we have said time and time again, law enforcement generally does a fantastic job with FRAs.
With that said, it is important to assert, firmly and without equivocation, that in "he said/she said" acquaintance rape cases, a college boy, or any other man, should not be jailed based solely on the say so of his accuser. There needs to be a thorough investigation, and if that investigation yields no additional evidence, and if his account is plausible, he should not be charged.
That, of course, goes beyond the police. It involves the D.A., too.
We must also start holding out news outlets accountable for fomenting rape hysteria by not giving an accurate picture in their news reports. When a reporter says, "police say she was dragged behind bushes and raped, and police are looking for the rapist," the reporter SHOULD have said: "Police say the accuser claims she was dragged behind bushes and raped, and the police are investigating the claim."
We must also insist on anonymity until a conviction occurs.
And, the big one, we must insist that false accusers be charged, tried and sentenced severely.
I neglect to add that I do hope that this thread can get back to the FRA made, the seemly utter stupidity of the couple that even bothered to make it, and the way FRA's lead to all sorts of other consequence for everyone involved.
I had, at one point, intended to delve into WTF the couple would have ever thought to make the claim.
I can only think that they MUST have intended it as retribution for his having run-off. Other than to cause him trouble, there seems no logical reason to A) portray the wife as a rape victim (aren't we constantly told that this is a source of great shame?), B) subject eh wife to a intimate forensic medical exam, nor C) subject themselves to the risk of being caught committing a crime.
Unlike situations where the FRA is made in a desperate attempt to hide an illicit sex act, no one would have known about the sex act at all, save for their bringing it up as an allegation. And, I'd have to guess that they did not do it for attention. Thus, I can only conclude that it was an ill-thought out attempt to harm the young man for not finishing what they had paid him to do.
I'd have to say that this goes to point out just how easily FRA's are brought about. They have serious ramifications, but never seem to have much serious though behind them. They typically seem to be made in haste, and in highly emotionally charged states, with only the most self-serving of reasons in the first place.
that a couple would chose to so flippantly chose the route of an FRA over keeping quite about what I would imagine to be a shameful incident would seem to show just how willing people (and, yes, I do mean mostly women) are to make them.
It's been implied by some gender-feminist that if a woman does make an FRA, then there must have been some deeply compelling reason for her to have done so.
This incident clearly illustrates that, no, they do not need a deeply compelling reason at all - any reason what so ever seems to be more than enough.
@ slwerners last comment.
You are right, a FRA is like striking a match in a petrol refinery.
Once struck, all hell breaks loose.
All hell breaks loose because rape has been so politicised by the womyns groups, by politicians and by police themselves (extra funding for rape squads)
We should be talking about ten years minimum for each of the liars.
slw, you raise excellent points. I think what we need to do, as a movement, is raise awareness about FRAs by getting billboard in a prominent place:
"RAPE IS A TERRIBLE THING. SO ARE FALSE RAPE CLAIMS.
False rape claims hurt the falsely accused and the credibility of rape victims."
p.s. left this out.
The purpose is to raise awaeness that crying rape is a very serious thing -- akin to shouting "fire" in a crowded theater. I suspect such a billboard would be controversial, and would draw a lot of attention.
@Archivist
"p.s. left this out.
The purpose is to raise awaeness that crying rape is a very serious thing -- akin to shouting "fire" in a crowded theater. I suspect such a billboard would be controversial, and would draw a lot of attention."
I can see the billboard now:
"
RAPE IS A TERRIBLE THING.
SO ARE FALSE RAPE CLAIMS.
get the facts
falserapesociety.blogspot.com
"
Nope, if you want the message to get out it *has* to be done like this.
RAPE IS A TERRIBLE CRIME.
FALSE RAPE ACCUSATIONS ARE A WORSE CRIME.
AfOR: trust me, I understand why you are saying that. But we can't make that blanket assertion. It's not always true.
I will give you a personal example of that someday -- when your case is all settled, you and I have to talk. And meet, if possible.
The point is: everybody agrees that rape can be a terrible intrusion on someone's dignity. The image of a stronger member of the species using a weaker member of the species -- who happens to be, for example, someone's loving wife or mother -- as his personal sexual plaything, is repulsive.
And false rape claims can be just as bad, and worse. It's enough to say they are repulsive, too, without insisting that we play the Oppression Olympics. Seriously -- too much of that "my victimization is worse than yours." Just want our victimization taken seriously.
Archivist comment at 1:41.
I agree, this needs to be taken to the next level. As important as your work here is - and it must continue - there is more I think we can, and should, be doing.
I've observed how our enemies - feminists (or if you prefer, third wave gender-feminists) operate. They have enough of a following that, when an offending article appears, one of them simply posts the contact details of the individual or organisation responsible for its publication. Then two dozen of them mail their individual complaints. They are civil, but forceful. Do you see how effective this could be?
I suggest an email strike force of this kind be organised. I mean, no one should be OBLIGED to email anyone specifically; more the case of you suggesting it, and those who have the time and inclination will do so. When you have enough of a following, this would happen naturally in response to the posting of contact details. E.g. on Feministing they don't necessarily have the same people making complaints every time, but there are ENOUGH subscribers that complaints get through. That's the kind of idea I'm talking about. And I don't just mean here, I mean for places like The Spearhead too. We've all got voices and we're often choosing to use them in an echo chamber rather than to attack the people we SHOULD be targeting.
This is not to criticise anyone, but to spur them to action.
Snark, exactly. We should start a network with FRS, you and whoever else would be interested -- Fidelbogen, hopefully, EW and some of the others, to do action alerts. Seriously. Just post them, and ask our readership to respond.
And I think the billboard idea is long overdue. Coupled with a press release about the problems facing the falsely accused.
Pierce
I just wanted to say I TOTALLY agree with this that you posted...it's exactly how I see it also.
"""We must also start holding out news outlets accountable for fomenting rape hysteria by not giving an accurate picture in their news reports. When a reporter says, "police say she was dragged behind bushes and raped, and police are looking for the rapist," the reporter SHOULD have said: "Police say the accuser claims she was dragged behind bushes and raped, and the police are investigating the claim."
We must also insist on anonymity until a conviction occurs.
And, the big one, we must insist that false accusers be charged, tried and sentenced severely."""
Snark - "I've observed how our enemies - feminists (or if you prefer, third wave gender-feminists) operate. They have enough of a following that, when an offending article appears, one of them simply posts the contact details of the individual or organisation responsible for its publication."
Yes, this is good. And, towards that end, the FRS posts links to the news sources carrying stories pertaining to FRA's.
One thing I've noticed, however, is that certain on-line news outlets selectively shut-off comments on such stories (I've note this is a couple of threads in recent months), with no comments being allowed on a follow-up to an earlier story revealing a rape claim having been proven to be false; while allowing comments, even on the earlier article which the FRA revaluation is addressing. [apparently allowing someone to post a suggestion that FRA's are harmful, and action should be taken to stop them is just tooooooo controversial; whereas keeping another forum open for gender-feminist to vent their spleens and call for the wholesale castration of men and boys, is a matter of protected free-speech].
Still, where comments are allowed, it is a good idea to make ourselves heard in as many forums as possible.
In oder to save time and effort, I find it useful to prepare a response targeted for the FRS, then a edit it to create a second post, targeted to the news story - and post them both to those respective targets.
Even if you simply provoke hateful responses from a few radical gender-feminists, you will still have raised awareness and planted a seed of thought. Often, the example set by one, inspires others to share thoughts that they might have felt uncomfortable about due to the political incorrectness of said thought.
Personally, I'm am often cheered to see comments that demonstrate a like-mindedness to the FRS from posters who are not even aware that the FRS exists (for me, this is amplified when that poster is also a woman). There are a good deal of people who are outraged by FRA's, but simply do not comprehend how pervasive they have become. A mention (link to) this site can be quite an eye-opener for some who were just responding to a local story that got their attention.
Every time a false rape story allows comments, you will see a ton of people who have never come to our site (most likely they are locals) but who echo the same things over and over: "she should get the same sentence he might have gotten," is the big one.
What we do here is not controversial except, ironically, in the gender wars world where rape feminist controls the public discourse on rape. Mr. and Mrs. Middle America/UK long ago figured out how awful FRAs are. We need to tap into what Nixon called "The Silent Majority."
"We should start a network with FRS, you and whoever else would be interested -- Fidelbogen, hopefully, EW and some of the others, to do action alerts. Seriously. Just post them, and ask our readership to respond."
Agreed. I wonder if this should be a separate (though linked) site. Perhaps with an RSS feed so other sites can list targets.
It may even be best, not to list EVERY FRA article, but to specifically list high-profile ones which are likely to get more readers.
Even though EVERY FRA IS A TRAGEDY which needs to be made public - which is what this site exists for - our goal of raising awareness/confronting anti-male discrimination will be best served if people don't get fatigued. Which is why I would say there should be a focus particularly on the high-profile, 'famous' FRA cases which spring up.
I agree with slwerner about pre-prepared general responses, for although a dozen individual responses would be more effective, that could be asking too much.
Perhaps a template, a sort of bare structured response, for individuals to fill in the gaps individually.
And even if comments are denied, we can always write to the organisation, where, for instance, they have used the "police say that ..." rather than "the accuser says that ..."
It's all embryonic right now, but these things will have a real impact.
Snark, write to me -- let's get this going.
By the way, on the right side of our page, we have a form for a letter for one particular newspaper sin -- calling an accuser the "victim." We need to add on to it.
The other thing I really need for this site is more writers. Snark -- I'd love to have you become a blogger here. It wouldn't need to interfere with your site at all, and you could feel free to cross post.
Anyway, I have long said that my goal in life isn't to be a well regarded men's rights leader. I want to help change some things that need to be changed. And I couldn't care less if I get any credit for it.
Write to me.
I emailed you at the ymail address. Mail me back, let me know your thoughts.
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1201930_woman_who_falsely_cried_rape_is_spared_jail
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/germanys-weather-star-arrested-on-rape-charges-1926999.html
just found a new one
http://www.trib.com/news/state-and-regional/article_ec613592-c823-5062-9da0-470485588be0.html
CBGirl
Re:Archivist @ 3:17. As far as whether or not being falsely accused of rape is worse than actual rape, it depends on a few things including how the falsely accused are treated.
If men falsely accused of rape were granted due process and the presumption-of-innocence, and if prosecutions didn't go ahead without sufficient evidence, then perhaps being falsely accused would not be as bad as being raped.
But given how the falsely accused are treated, the prospect of being deprived of one's liberty and effectively persecuted by society based on nothing but an allegation, not to mention the social condemnation of threat of extra-legal retribution, simply for being the wrong gender is infinitely more terrifying and alienating than simply being bullied into unwanted sex by a maladjusted social outcast.
And frankly, as a man I find the whole notion that my freedom is entirely dependent on the goodwill of women to be unbelievably insulting and an effront to my dignity and human rights. And I say that as someone who is a fairly down-to-earth sort of guy, and hardly the most egocentric person you will ever meet. But I will say that so long as men have no rights, I couldn't care less about women being raped.
Put simply, it is not the responsibility of society's second-class citizens to care about the plight of the first-class citizens. You don't expect some black guy in the old deep South trying to avoid getting lynched to feel concerned about the fact that some whites are genuine victims of black crime. Compassion and empathy is a luxury you cannot afford when your neck is on the line.
Until such a time that men get some rights and self-worth back, it is not our responsibility to be concerned about what happens to women.
@ Nick.
It's very hard to criticise someone who has in effect been kicked by "X" if they then go around with the attitude that they wouldn't piss on "X" if it was on fire.
I use that example deliberately.
There is a huge difference between setting X alight, and doing nothing if X is burning.
One is active, one is passive.
I am now, as an FRA victim, the most passive fucker that ever was, as Bill Epton said, burn baby burn
Bill's words, from 1966, plus ca change eh..
You didn't have to have a trial to "prove" these things. All you had to do was ask me and I would have told you – Yes! There's no problem – There's no secret – whatever we write and publish we sign with our name, address and phone number. We are willing and not afraid to put out ideas in the public view. ... Did you, at any time, think that we would deny what we do and have done? Did you think that we would deny what we hold to be true and what we believe in? Do you think that all people in this country have been so "brain dirtied" and have been so thoroughly corrupted that they are afraid to express an independent thought – to stand up for what they believe and fight for it? Well, there are people in this country who are governed by ideas that do not come out of the pages of the Times and the Daily News, and their numbers grow every day. And I am sure that this so-called "trial" has opened up many more eyes. Whatever we do and whatever we believe in – we do and believe that it is in the interest of the people of this country; And yes – we are proud to have done it and to be doing it and we stand behind our actions four-square!
"What we do here is not controversial except, ironically, in the gender wars world where rape feminist controls the public discourse on rape. Mr. and Mrs. Middle America/UK long ago figured out how awful FRAs are. We need to tap into what Nixon called "The Silent Majority.""
While the general public, male and female, are against false rape accusations, they also generally assume that reports of rape are true until shown otherwise. The presumption of guilt is not limited to feminists. The problem as I see it is that most rape accusations are false because people believe most rape accusations.
Nick
I like your posts.
And people believe just about anything that is said on tv. Not many people think for themselves.
"The problem as I see it is that most rape accusations are false because people believe most rape accusations."
The other aspect of this that we have to address at some point is this: every real rape hurts the credibility of men falsely accused of rape. It shouldn't be that way but it is. If there really are a tiny percentage of serial rapists out there, we need to fully support getting them off the streets permanently and not turn our heads from it. Note, I'm talking about the rapists whose guilt truly is beyond a reasonable doubt. Just as rape victims loathe and detest the false accusers, we loathe and detest actual rapists. It is totally consistent with our message to support efforts to get the actual rapists off the street, alsong with the false accusers.
I will be writing about this issue shortly.
In my experience, every real rape is as plain as the day, eg the woman is left battered and bleeding, always requiring urgent medical attention.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/686561/Rape-victim-was-left-for-dead.html
In this case the guy claims he did not do it, but someone clearly did, the woman CLEARLY did not engage in consensual sex.
If you're not battered and bleeding, it wasn't rape...
Yes, rape *can* occur in a domestic situation, in THEORY, in practice what does happen and is recorded as rape is not, it is a woman re-writing history after the event.
This man should write his family off, disown them and go his own way.
AfOR said...
If you're not battered and bleeding, it wasn't rape...
Yes, rape *can* occur in a domestic situation, in THEORY, in practice what does happen and is recorded as rape is not, it is a woman re-writing history after the event.
Respectfully AfOR, I disagree. Cases of date rape have occured where the rapist has spiked their victims drinks and then taken advantage of them. Other cases of rape have occured where there was no visible harm inflicted upon the victim.
"Cases of date rape have occured where the rapist has spiked their victims drinks and then taken advantage of them."
Nope.
I'm with snark on the whole date rape crapola.
"Date rape" was the hysteria de jour around 10 years ago. It has been debunked as hysteria, but for gender / Raunch feminists...it gives them too much social and cultural power to admit it was mostly irrational hysteria.
@Snark and AfOR,
Again, respectfully, I disagree with you. In my opinion, denial of date rape is just as blind as denial of false rape accusations. I've read a number of newspaper reports that state false rape accusations are a myth as well.
Anyway I'll let the topic drop now as I don't want to get into a fight/flame/debate with people, and simply agree to disagree :)
I hope I haven't upset anyone by my position, as that's not my intention.
"The problem as I see it is that most rape accusations are false because people believe most rape accusations."
That's a good point. If the bulk of the population knew how common false rape claims are, making such an allegation would have far less power and the number of false claims would gradually decline. False rape claims are so high because Joe public hasn't quite caught up with the scam yet.
Indeed, if the public knew that the majority of rape allegations are false the default assumption would shift from the accused man proving his innocence to the accuser facing the stigma of being a lying nutcase.
@ once bitten.
Certainly the UK is not the whole world... however...
No toxicology report (routinely done) on an alleged date rape drug victim has ever found anything except alcohol, cannabis, amphetamine, ecstasy etc.
None, not one single one.
The "excuse"?
date rape drugs metabolise so quickly.
This is also a lie, in clinical tests 3mg doses of rohypnol etc were all detectable 28 FUCKING DAYS LATER in urine samples.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:nPwHX0pZqO8J:www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/201894.pdf+date+rape+in+toxicology+report&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgIAq2Ko-S_6fuffJGS_gkv_s8GklhU9aRnb0Hk4kA7ek7H8NcIwelpWnyAX0gy5N7webOEgADmvOoYOzqxwDQkmG2b6TrEtxj4AUgBWfu-YpNxz4HOQBPANi1wDoaT4BLo23L8&sig=AHIEtbTBZ18WTa9Ef90HXf2pIpmF21DOXw
the linked google doc specifically says that "specific detection" (eg Court level forensic proof positive) was possible 5 DAYS AFTER TAKING A SINGLE 3mg dose
Afor
I like your links!
LMFAO
You trying to chat me up?
And frankly, as a man I find the whole notion that my freedom is entirely dependent on the goodwill of women to be unbelievably insulting and an effront to my dignity and human rights.
******
I don't think I've ever read truer words than these. Your point about men being second class citizens is also excellent.
Post a Comment