Sunday, March 21, 2010

Feminist's view of how rape is treated on campus is akin to holding the facts up to a funhouse mirror

To combat rape on campus, schools should stop keeping it quiet

"Correction to This Article [this appears in the Washington Post] This article about how colleges deal with campus sexual assault cases mischaracterized the policy at Bucknell University. The school does not use mediation to adjudicate such cases; rather, mediation is an option made available by Bucknell to victims of sexual assault in addition to a campus judicial proceeding. The article also said that, in reaction to a Center for Public Integrity report on colleges and their policies, Bucknell is considering abandoning mediation. It is not."

By Jaclyn Friedman
Sunday, March 14, 2010

In 1992, at about this time of year, a boy I knew sexually assaulted me. We were undergraduates at Wesleyan University. He was a member of a sports team, and I was one of the team's managers. Away at a tournament one night, the team decided to party in the captains' hotel room, and I decided to prove I was "one of the guys" by trying to match them drink for drink. When I failed, I stumbled back to my room and crawled into bed to pass out. That's when I discovered he'd followed me there.

[FRS COMMENT: We treat anyone who claims she or he has been raped with dignity and respect. But that doesn't mean we assume they are telling the truth. Because if we take them at their word, then we must assume the person they've accused of rape is, in fact, a rapist. When a woman goes public with her rape allegation, and when she also happens to be a rape advocate, we have a duty to point out that her accusation is just that -- an accusation. Take the above paragraph: is there any proof that this assault occurred aside from her assertion that it did? Has the "boy" (an undergraduate, so I am assuming he was at least 18 and had already registered for selective service) ever furnished a statement as to what occurred that we can review? All we have in this paragraph is the woman's conclusory statement that she was "sexually assaulted." There is no recitation of what the "boy" reasonably believed, or about what her outward conduct manifested to the "boy." All we know is that the "boy" followed her back to her room. Is his following her back to her room indicative of a crime? Is the fact that she had too much to drink dispositive? Is she insisting that she could find your way back to her room but that, by necessity, she was incapable of consenting to sex? Seriously?]

In the aftermath of the assault, I found myself needing a lot of things: a few incredibly patient friends who would listen to me say the same thing over and over and react as though it was a fresh insight every time. Time off from my job as a research assistant in the psychology department. A community of survivors who gathered in the mismatched chairs of the campus women's center to try to make sense of life-altering trauma and violation.

[FRS COMMENT: The "mismatched chairs" comment is intended to paint a picture of an underfunded organization. This is in contrast to the non-existent chairs at the campus' nonexistent men's center.]

I also needed justice. But I never considered going to the police. There had been no struggle, there was no physical evidence, and so I had no faith I'd be believed or taken seriously. Instead, I pressed charges through the on-campus judicial system.

[FRS COMMENT: She didn't make a criminal charge because she assumed she wouldn't be taken seriously. Yet, she assumes that by pressing a charge in the court of last resort -- the court of public opinion -- she would be taken seriously. The fact is, women who cry rape are taken seriously everywhere, every time.  I would add this: Victims of false rape claims also need justice. But frequently they are arrested and jailed first before anyone bothers even to check out a video or other evidence that proves they were wrongfully arrested]

Most American colleges have internal judicial boards, often populated by perfunctorily trained student "leaders" selected by the school's administration and acting with faculty supervision. These bodies are charged with handling cases involving the school's code of conduct: plagiarism allegations, on-campus underage-drinking charges and disputes between students. They are notoriously bad at dealing with charges of sexual violence.

[FRS COMMENT: Please save the hyperbole for someone who doesn't know any better, who hasn't seen it from the perspective of an advocate for the falsely accused. Yes, college judicial boards are notoriously bad at it -- because they are the epitome of "Kangaroo courts" where young men are often deprived of fundamental legal rights. They are often not permitted to have legal representation while their young accusers are afforded all manner of assistance. The young men are often treated as criminals while their accusers are treated gingerly (I know this first-hand). The hearings allow young men to be found responsible based on standards of proof far below "beyond a reasonable doubt." Often, there is not even a right to confront the accuser. In short, young men are permitted to be stripped of their dignity based on nothing more than an accusation.]

I'd heard horror stories about victims being grilled in excruciating detail about their sexual histories, as if anything a woman may have done in her past made her fair game to be raped in the present. But I got lucky on that front: My assailant agreed to plead no contest to the charges if I agreed to hear him out. So I spent a dark hour and a half in a dean's office, barely breathing while the guy who'd violated me wept about his family history of alcoholism. A few days later, the dean of students called me to say that the guy had been expelled for a year (the amount of time I had left at school) but that I mustn't speak of the case -- or the punishment -- to anybody.

Grateful that I would no longer have to see my attacker around campus, I didn't think to question the sentence or the muzzle at the time. But as I began to heal, I encountered survivors of on-campus sexual violence who had been taken even less seriously than I had by the system. Gag order or no, I began to speak out about my experience and advocate for change. And then, without warning, my assailant reappeared on campus, turning my last semester into a haze of fear, hiding and post-traumatic stress.

[FRS COMMENT: I remember the appellate judge I was clerking for in 1984 asking a rape advocate in open court why evidence of post-traumatic stress syndrome should be admissible for rape cases and not, for example, for robbery cases when someone has had a gun pointed at his head. The non-answer he received spoke volumes about the arrogance of the rape advocacy industry.]

The same thing that happened to me is still happening to young women on college campuses in this country dozens of times every day. And schools are no better equipped (or inclined) to dispense justice than they were in 1992. That's the conclusion of a recent report by the Center for Public Integrity, which found that, despite Justice Department evidence that one in five female college students will be sexually assaulted or the victim of an attempt while at school, students who say they've been raped on campus are rarely believed. Instead, advocates on these issues tell me, the women are encouraged not to file charges, asked about how high their heels were that night or forced into mediation with their assailants, as if this were some kind of unfortunate disagreement and not a profound and violent crime.

[FRS COMMENT: How many times must we prove that rape statistics are worse then unreliable? Moreover, the following assertion is nothing less than astounding: ". . . students who say they've been raped on campus are rarely believed." Excuse me? Students who claim they were raped are automatically believed, and we have overwhelming evidence to prove it. Go take a look at the TV news report of the Hofstra non-gang rape immediately after the story broke and before the rape accuser was caught in a lie. The report accepted the rape lie lock, stock, and barrel, and reported it in the most solemn, frightening tones. Newspapers do the same thing. We report on those stories all the time -- we reprint the story before the lie is exposed and after. Spend a couple of weeks reading through the archives of this site and you'll see for yourself.  The fact is, the accuser's account is typically taken as true, based on nothing more than her accusation, and we have innumerable examples to prove it. Yet, we have a rape advocate who says the exact opposite, and offers no evidence beyond her serene ipse dixit. THIS is why there is such a disconnect.  Just saying a thing, or repeating a myth, doesn't make it true.  Finally, note the last sentence in the above paragraph: to this writer, the accusation is enough to assume there was a violent crime. Sigh.]

Even in cases where the accused is found "responsible," he is rarely expelled. Instead, the Center for Public Integrity found, college rapists are subjected to such punishments as writing an apology letter or taking an anger-management class. They almost always graduate on time, while their victims, retraumatized by the judicial process and constantly afraid of running into their attacker or his friends on campus, often drop out or transfer.

[FRS COMMENT: Pardon me if I don't believe this.]

All of which leads to this question: If schools handle sexual assault cases so badly, why are they doing it at all? Isn't this a matter best left to the police?

[FRS COMMENT: This is the first remotely sensible thing this writer has said in this article.]

Unfortunately, the police are hardly ever a better option. Even in jurisdictions with favorable laws on the books -- such as Illinois, where in 1991 the Supreme Court ruled that no corroborating evidence is needed to convict an accused rapist if the accuser is found to be credible -- police and prosecutors rarely take rape charges seriously unless there are other witnesses or the victim has physical injuries. Even DNA isn't enough, because the accused often counterclaims that the sex was consensual.

[FRS COMMENT: I find the assertion that police don't take these claims "seriously" incredibly insulting to law enforcement. Again, we show case after case after case where police take even the most far-fetched claims seriously. Some of the stories we feature on this site chronicle the incredible man-hours spent taking these claims seriously -- and then they turn out to be lies. All of that evidence is contained on this website. What evidence does this author have to support her blithe dismissal of the police efforts? The fact that some claims are not pressed where it is at least equally plausible that nothing happened does not mean the claims are not taken seriously. It just means the D.A. is doing his or her job.]

This is especially problematic in light of studies (notably ones by David Lisak at the University of Massachusetts at Boston and Stephanie McWhorter at the Naval Health Research Center in San Diego) suggesting that 60 to 70 percent of rapists deliberately get their victims drunk or otherwise manipulate the situation so that it's not necessary to inflict the very physical injuries that might give them away. No wonder that the Justice Department has found that at least 60 percent of rapes go unreported.

[FRS COMMENT: And almost 100% of the falsely accused have their reputations destroyed based on cases where there is a similar absence of physical evidence.  Yet the rape accuser lies, and is automatically believed.]

Even if our legal system handled rape cases brilliantly, schools would still have a responsibility to maintain a safe and equal learning environment for everyone -- and that means doing everything in their power to ensure that female students don't find their studies interrupted by the kinds of fear or trauma that male students rarely are forced to imagine, let alone confront. That's not just my opinion -- that's the legal standard set by Title IX, the same federal regulation that has been so successful in ensuring that girls have a fair shake at athletic opportunities. The Supreme Court held in 1992 that Title IX -- which broadly prohibits sex discrimination in education -- specifically obligates schools to prevent and remedy sexual harassment and assault.

[FRS COMMENT: This writer obviously doesn't believe that countless falsely accused male students are forced to go through the hell of a Kangaroo court system. My guess is she doesn't believe there is much chance that accused males may be factually innocent.]

The problem is, unlike in the sports arena, it requires nearly superhuman emotional fortitude on the part of a campus assault victim to file a Title IX case. "The seemingly insurmountable obstacle," reports Colby Bruno, managing attorney at the Victim Rights Law Center, which represents campus rape victims, "is that after the victim has been retraumatized by the campus process, that victim no longer wishes to go forward with a Title IX complaint because of the additional trauma it would cause." It's one thing to sue your school for a fair chance to play soccer; it's quite another to take it on over its inability to properly handle rape cases, while trying to heal from your own sexual assault.

And that's what colleges seem to be counting on. When it comes to sexual assault, they'll do anything to be able to claim that "it doesn't happen here" -- even if that means flouting reporting laws and creating the very environment of silence, rape apology and victim-blame that ensures that it will.

[FRS COMMENT: Again, what is she talking about? At UC Davis, we got a first-hand look at how sexual assault stats are jacked up on campus, apparently to get more funding.]

It doesn't have to be this way. University campuses could easily become labs that innovate effective ways to prevent and prosecute rape. But for that to happen, everyone -- parents, alumni, students, school officials, law enforcement -- needs to stop treating rape like it's an embarrassing cold sore and start tackling it like the public health crisis it is. Using the Justice Department's numbers, we can predict that during this school year, more than 400,000 young women will be sexually assaulted on a U.S. college campus. And according to McWhorter's research, more than 90 percent of those 400,000 rapes will be committed by repeat offenders who will rape, on average, six times during their academic careers.

[FRS COMMENT: Oh, my, oh, my! What study is DOJ using? I mean, is this author claiming the DOJ stats came from a real study? The repeat offenders stats are almost double what we've seen elsewhere. Imagine that? Rape stats that don't agree! (They don't agree because all of them are a guessing game.)]

That rate of recidivism is actually a golden opportunity, if only schools and courts would take it. It means that all we need to do is get serious about punishing the tiny percentage of men who are committing the vast majority of assaults, and many, many fewer women will have to live through the trauma of sexual violation.

The solutions aren't even that complicated. First, colleges can eliminate the "miscommunication" excuse that many rapists use by creating an on-campus standard that requires any party to a sexual interaction to make sure their partner is actively enthusiastic about what's happening -- not just not objecting. They can create judicial boards equipped to seriously investigate rape accusations, instead of throwing their hands up at the first sign that the accused's testimony contradicts the accuser's. They can defend the safety of the entire campus by permanently expelling those found guilty of sexual assault. And they can be transparent about every step of the process.

[FRS COMMENT: And now, finally, we come to the supreme moonbat moment of the entire piece. It's rape if there isn't active enthusiastic consent manifested. One of the most extreme, inane suggestions that we've repeatedly discussed on this site. The main problem with this suggestion is that this isn't how men and women interact, and to punish young men for not conforming to a radical feminist created standard that is not accepted in the real world is barbaric. Newsflash: some people are incapable of showing enthusiasm about anything. Sex with a woman like that is always rape.  And who the hell would decide if it was enthusiastic?  It must be lost on this writer that men and women in a committed relationship do things for each other with regularity out of love and often without all that much enthusiasm, no matter how that word is defined.  And that includes sex. And, yes, sometimes they do it only after some cajoling. And it can work both ways.  When a woman is trying to get pregnant, her partner often has sex out of obligation even when it's not convenient and often when he is not especially "enthusiastic." Despite the male gender's reputation for wanting sex 24/7, sometimes it takes some cajoling. Has he been "raped" since he gave into her cajoling without being "enthusiastic"? No sane person would say he has. One other point: he said/she said cases where both parties present plausible accounts shouldn't allow for the male to be expelled based on a credibility contest. To punish the male because his accuser is a good actress is also barbaric.]

There is some small glimmer of hope that change is coming. Inspired by the Center for Public Integrity report, Bucknell University is considering abandoning mediation as a way of adjudicating sexual assault cases, and the University of Massachusetts at Amherst has a new policy requiring all sexual assault cases to be personally reviewed by the dean of students.

But while these are steps in the right direction, they are tiny ones. Stopping rape on campus is going to require a giant leap of faith. It may require a few extraordinarily strong survivors to file Title IX charges against their schools. It will require visionary campus administrators who care more about the safety of students than they do about their public image.

It will require parents, students and alumni to demand real, effective change. We will all need to recognize that, because the veil of silence must be pulled back for the real work to begin, the campuses we love may have to suddenly appear less safe if they're going to actually become safer.

jf@jaclynfriedman.com

Jaclyn Friedman is the editor of "Yes Means Yes: Visions of Female Sexual Power and a World Without Rape."
Link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/12/AR2010031201792.html

90 comments:

Anonymous said...

Why Feminism is a Fraud…

…and just uses the ‘fight for women’s rights’ as a proxy to wage war on men.
Feminism had a lot to say back in the day (before I was born I might add.) When you look at its foundational beliefs everything they push on society via government (men’s taxes) revolves about a few constants:

1. Men cannot be victims. Women cannot be perpetrators.
2. Women have been oppressed, are still oppressed and the only thing that can save them is feminism.
3. Women are exploited by patriarchal constructs like capitalism.
4. Women are equal (or superior) to men in every way.
http://endofmen.wordpress.com/2007/11/08/why-feminism-is-a-fraud/

Anonymous said...

Women are equal to or superior to men in every way, and yet are helpless children who need Big Brother to guide them through the Valley of Men.

Sonja Newcombe said...

I note she says "The team" decided to get shitfaced. I assume that means the "boy" in question as well...

And in spite of the fact that (if her claim is true) she was a victim of a crime, she failed to report said crime. Sympathy points lost.

Then she goes on that she broke the "gag order" and whines on that the guy came back to the Uni. Hmmm...

And look, it's the old One-in-X myth! Where HAS that old friend been hiding?

As to the punishments meted out by this disgusting Kangaroo courts, how is it unfair? It's not like the charge has been made legitimately or even through the Justice system at all. If you want true punishment, take it to the places where you'll get it.

"Unfortunately, the police are hardly ever a better option"

And why not? They're trained to handle these cases, and in gathering evidence for the case. Problem = what?

This woman bleats on about how hard it is, and for real victims, I get that. I read Tegan Wagner's novel on her rape and what she went through to get the convictions she did. But that's the point - she toughed it out, did the hard yards, and got in a good "rot in hell" sentence for her attackers. From what I understand, while one sentence wasn't what she'd hoped for, the rest left her feeling like she'd won. Why wouldn't you want that?

Anonymous said...

The University isn't responsible for enforcing the law. That is the job of the police.

And if a woman is making a dubious claim, I can easily understand why she wouldn't want to use the legal system: there could be repercussions. All of this amounts to a call for a presumption of guilt for any man accused of rape.

Anonymous said...

All we know is that the "boy" followed her back to your room

We don't even know that. The whole thing could just be a cock and bull story she fabricated for some ulterior reason.

Sonja Newcombe said...

"We don't even know that. The whole thing could just be a cock and bull story she fabricated for some ulterior reason."

Like, maybe, to make a point in an online post? Not a very legitimate point, but that's a whole other can of worms.

Anonymous said...

It's a pity you don't want to see it, Ms Sonja.

Anonymous said...

Anon @2.26: that's precisely why thry have these "mediation" councils.What's there to mediate? Some girl got her feelings hurt because the guy didn't send her flowers the next day? lol It certainly isn't a crime but allows a female to play the victim when her Ego is diminished. Going to the police wouldn't be as good because then she'd actually have to prove her allegation rather than just let a few feminist or mangina mediators listen to her tale of woe.

Anonymous said...

Anon at 2:55

I totally agree.

In stories like this you really do not know if ANYTHING happened.

Also from being around women who have been drinking they can be VERY sexually aggressive. I have been on the other end of this many times.

Many guys probably feel OBLIGATED to then try to please the horny girl that is all over them........only to be accused of rape the next day when she regrets it.

As far as "women's rights" goes nothing makes women out to be a bigger bunch of infants than these I got drunk and he raped me stories.

Anonymous said...

Part 1 of 2
In the aeronautical world, aviation safety experts have realized for some time that aircraft incidents and accidents almost always result from a series of events, each of which is associated with one or more cause factors. Thus, the cause of an accident or incident has many aspects. We can look at rape allegations in the same manner.

The questions to be asked in this case:
1. Why is Jaclyn Friedman managing a sports team?
2. Is this team composed of all men?
3. Why did she feel the need to prove herself to be "one of the guys?"
4. She "discovered" he followed her there. At that point, why didn't she tell him to go away as she was drunk and needed to "pass out?"
5. Where is HER responsibility in maintaining her own sobriety?
6. We then jump from the "followed me there" comment to "In the aftermath of the assault." There is no indication of what transpired in her room.
7. Did she consent and later regret it?
8. What actually happened?

If she wanted to be reasonable and accountable, she should have relayed the whole story in the article. Further, at the time of the incident, she could have insisted that he leave after her "discovery," but she didn't. Also, if she was that drunk, where is her responsibility to the team as manager if she is incapacitated?

So, let's see:
1. She is derelict in her role as a manager; does not understand physiology and the physiological differences of men and women; and the effects of alcohol.
2. She was drinking irresponsibly.
3. She does not relay, in her article, neither what transpired after he followed her back to her room nor why she didn't tell him to go away after her discovery.

Take away reason and accountability..... and you have a feminist view of the world.

The point is that there is a chain of events that brought her into this situation that, at any point, had SHE done something differently (just as with pilots in airplane crashes) the incident would not have happened.

To be responsible men, in this day and age where feminist jurisprudence has trampled on our Constitutional Rights and created an extremely uneven playing field, we men must pay attention to the following "rules" as Archivist has posted previously:

http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/2010/01/how-to-avoid-false-rape-charge.html

▲ Avoid: Casual hook-ups or one night stands involving alcohol.

▲ Avoid: Situations where the woman has motivation to deny sex with you was consensual.

▲ Avoid: Group sex where there was one woman and multiple guys.

▲ Avoid: Lying about any and all aspects of your story if/when being investigated. Liars lose. If a woman claims you raped her, you are more likely to be charged if the police find you lied to the woman or to the police about even a matter that isn't crucial.

▲ Avoid: as a male: being a school teacher, a police officer, an ambulance paramedic, or a cab driver. (I would also include: ob/gyn doctor, chiropractor, physical therapist, massage therapist, nurse, hair stylist, or any vocation for which a male enters that is a predominately done by females or has predominately female clientele. If you are a top-performing athlete or media figure, you'll need to take even more precautions to avoid being a target.)

▲ Avoid: Nasty break-ups.

▲ Avoid: As an older male, avoid relationships with much younger females.

▲ Avoid: As a teen boy, avoid relationships with older woman.

The article we posted here on how to avoid false allegations (in the link above) has more suggestions made by commentators. Men and women both must think like pilots, and be aware that aircraft incursions and crashes, just like rape and false allegations of rape, have multiple causative factors involving a chain of events, that, if any of the links are broken, the incident does not occur.

Anonymous said...

Part 2 of 2

It is everyone's responsibility to figure out what the spoken and unspoken rules are, and what actions make or break the chain of events that lead to rape and false allegations of rape, while we work to bring the legal system back into balance and restore fairness and equality in to the justice system. Not everybody will be "Sully" Sullenberger, but surely everyone is a pilot.

Cannon's Canon said...

This post evokes a range of powerful emotions in me. However off-topic or un-PC, I will share them tonight as my own "opinions", as I am entitled to hold as such. That's the best disclaimer I'm willing to give.

Jaclyn Friedman was almost surely looking for sex on her famous night. However, she wanted the sexual attention of the 'captain' of the team, or whatever leader had caught her fancy. After her sloppy drinking performance in front of men with a higher social status (as manager, she essentially waited on these guys), she only secured the attraction of a mere 'beta' orbiter team-member, a proverbial bench-rider. Since she was lubed up for a tryst with her man (or men) of choice, she consequently offered ZERO physical resistance to her consolation lay. She admits as much here, where we see that she has remained employable as an editorialist from one single story since 2007 http://www.alternet.org/story/48835/

Yes, YEARS later, this story is still pertinent to progressive college campus policies!

I suspect that Jaclyn Friedman also offered little in the way of "verbal" resistance during her terrible ordeal. Her "trauma" included her target alpha learning of her sexual relevance to lower rated team members. She priced herself out of that/those guys' interest, and needed to blame someone other than herself (for doing whatever she wanted all the time). Much of this surely developed after the "rape" in question. She was, however arbitrarily, "eligible" until the team loser marked his territory. Upon revelation at such self-inflicted damage from willing sex, we might certainly rally around a "RAPE" charge! That poor girl!

Cannon's Canon said...

I recently discussed the "five most useless undergraduate majors" with a friend. Our consensus top two were ethnic and gender studies. However, I tossed this stinkbomb of an idea around in my mind and drew a startling conclusion: I could make some serious money as a feminist activist! Take the 'Feministing' site, for example. The founder is now an adjunct professor at Rutgers since age 32. She is a published author (not just on-demand print either!) and commands appearance fees. Two other staff members have book deals, and several of their staff are paid to speak on tours. One chick has been on the O'Reilly Factor!

If I were to have betrayed my manhood, gender, race, and ideology, I too could get rich off this shit, as a self-hating figurehead. Their audience would clamor to consume my message.

Another thought: Jaclyn Friedman joins the long list of feminist Jew pioneers. This is a difficult subject to broach for obvious reasons. I have a few tight relationships with Jews and blacks, but if I am truly comfortable with someone in my social network, I let them know that I consider my own white interests to be unique to their own. Tangentially: more Jews I know right now are behaving absent of allegiance to their traditional "home"-state.

Another thought that crossed my mind was the curious inclusion of women "suing" for the right to play soccer in college. College soccer is not a revenue-generating sport, despite whatever worldwide-popularity spin is put on it. Thus, many division one schools opt out of men's varsity soccer, since it's so easy to attract women for 25 low-cost, title IX-sanctioned scholarships that offset football's 85.

Cannon's Canon said...

Back to "Occam's Razor"... it seems to me that Jaclyn Friedman has become marketable because of her story, which seems like a classic case of he-said/she-said. Considering her perceived (actualized) benefits from telling this story, it is in her best interests to victimize herself. I am inclined to not believe it because she stands much more to profit.

She laments those "fellow" victims who are intimidated into silence? She has made a livelihood from her victim status. Her example encourages a culture of victimhood, at the expense of men (of course).

I propose that ms. thang orgasmed during the sex in question and was simply very unimpressed the next morning with the dumpy lover of her alcohol-fueled choice.

AfOR said...

The following is a true story.

Pain is a funny thing, a deliberately inflicted pinch can hurt more than cuts that you just let happen while doing some work under the hood of the car.

We all, I guess, like to think we are manly enough to withstand pain, oh yes, especially if we are a secret agent about to be tortured by the Nazis.

Women like to talk about the pain of childbirth, but they have never been kicked in the balls, and unlike childbirth nobody orgasmed from being kicked in the balls.

I should point out (why will become clear later) that at this time I was living and working overseas in a foreign country with a foreign culture and foreign language.

So one day I had an accident at work, got whacked in the face by a lump of metal moving fairly fast, broken teeth, plural.

Being a robust, manly sort of guy I Ignored it for a day or two, took a few codeine but it didn't help, and eating with raw nerve endings wasn't so much fun.

Being a robust manly sort of guy I naturally hated doctors and dentists anyway, dentists especially as it was "above the neck" and so a lot more "personal" and harder to ignore.

Cut a long story short, the diagnosis was multiple extractions, and due to the likelihood of having to poke around and pull out bone fragments, it was to be done under general anaesthesia.

This suited me, because up until then I had never had any form of anaesthesia of any kind during dental visits, any work done (just fillings) was done stone cold straight.

This was my first ever "general", so I wasn't worried at all, but then again I didn't know anything about anaesthesia. I was a robust manly sort of guy who got injured now and again in the line of work, but I was never ill, so I didn't need to know anything, did I?

One of the things I didn't know was that the initial "knockout" hit was only for starters, then came the cocktail, and one part of that cocktail was used to keep you "under", and another part of that cocktail was used to keep you "immobile"

One of the other things I didn't know was that if you regain conciousness, the cocktail of drugs running around your system really does give you paranoid delusions, of the kind those old "reefer" adverts warned you about.

I know this because I regained conciousness when the butchery started, and to cut a long story short, you spend a couple of minutes trying desperately to signal, somehow, that you are awake, concentrating on various parts of your body and willing them to move.

When this fails, which it does because of the relaxant drugs, the paranoid delusions kick in in force, "they" know you are awake, "they" are torturing you, deliberately, etc etc. In my case my particular delusion was that all I had to do was tell "them" the location of my fiancee, and they would stop. In reality my fiancee was in a waiting room somewhere in the same building, but that wasn't any part of my delusion.

My "tortuers" were speaking in a foreign (not English) language, which, secret agent that I was, they did not know I could speak fluently, but all I had to do was resist, one second at a time, while the torture went on.

AfOR said...

Ever since then, it was always a matter of secret pride to me that I resisted the "torture" and refused to give up the location of my fiancee. Many men want to know what they are really made of, and I had some knowledge of that, and it was a good kind of knowledge that ironically made me a stronger person in real life.

Eventually my "tortuers" realised that I was not going to "break", and I lost conciousness again, only to regain it some time later in a room with two burly orderlies lifting me from a gurney to a bed, and my fiancee there. I was instantly filled with anger and fear for her, one orderly got slammed against the wall and I was grabbing the throat of the second when my fiancee grabbed my face and started screaming at me to stop.

The surgeons were called, as were the anaesthetists, and after intial disbelief, I was able to recount the conversations in the operating theater, which oddly now seemed quite mundane and ordinary, one surgeon had ordered a car, which I was able to specify exactly, and another had bought a new set of golf clubs.

The surgeons left, and one anaesthetist explained what anaesthesia really was, the fine lines between conciousness, unconciousness, coma and death, erring on the side of caution, and the cocktail of drugs usually administered.

Regaining conciousness during an operation is one of those dirty little secrets that all anaesthetists knew about, but very few other people did.

For that day until very recently you could keep all your kicked in the balls or broken bones stories, my high water mark of suffering was up here somewhere, says he, holding his hand somewhere above his head, while all that stuff was down at ankle height.

Not just because of the pain itself, but because of the absolute hopelessness and inability to do or say anything to make it stop, and also because of the sick dread and paranoia caused by the cocktail of drugs.

That was then.

Being arrested, out of the blue, with no warning whatsoever, that no inkling that such a thing could ever happen to you, for a rape that you did not commit, was worse, much worse.

I'm not going to try to describe it, because I can't.

What I can tell you is that within 24 hours I had revised my high water mark of suffering.

My "torture" experiences were now about ankle high, and my new high water mark was somehwere above my head.

Not because of the physical pain, there wasn't any, apart from anxiety pains, but because of the absolute hopelessness and inability to do or say anything to make it stop, and also, very importantly, because of the sick dread and paranoia, that was in this instance not drug induced, but very, very real.

I'd willingly submit to the operating theater torture every single day, in preference to the False Rape Accusations, and I was one of the lucky ones, granted bail, allowed back out into society, allowed to come and go to my legal teams offices as I saw fit.

To be sure, I have never been raped, but I doubt anyone who has been raped has woken up during surgery and remained concious for several minutes either, and you will never convince me that the two things are even on the same planet, much less comparable.

And yet, regaining consciousness during surgery is a walk in the fucking park compared to a False Rape Accusation.

Those of you out there who have neither been raped, nor falsely accused, who want some idea, some understanding, some empathy, well it will be a lot easier for you now, just rent the movie Marathon Man, or watch this clip http://www.poetv.com/video.php?vid=40783

And realise, this is a walk in the fucking park compared to a FRA.

Anonymous said...

@AfOR

"And realise, this is a walk in the fucking park compared to a FRA."

So say we all. A-freakin'-men, brother.

I'm so sorry to read about your bout with Anesthesia awareness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anesthesia_awareness

The biggest difference to me is that the surgery and surgical/anesthesia awareness has a defined starting and end point and you came back to your senses eventually. With the FRA, having been falsely accused, I know you'll never be the same and that the repercussions never end.

One's sense of the world as a falsely accused never returns or is the same, in much the same way I think that war veterans sense and experience of the world is never the same after their exposure to war. I wish there were VFW Halls for the falsely accused. I guess FRS is as close as we'll come to that for now.

AfOR said...

I had to laugh reading that wiki.

Talked to an anaesthetist at a party a few years ago, told him the story, he said "well, the monitoring equipment is so much better now, that sort of thing doesn't happen any more"

I laughed and said I the last time I told an anaesthetist he said the exact same thing, but that was 6 months after the op...

Anonymous said...

http://www.alternet.org/story/48835/

"I never even tried to shove that guy off of me, something that I now know I could have easily done, even drunk, even if he was bigger than me, which honestly, he wasn't."

*wiping coffee off monitor*

Anonymous said...

I wonder if a male student subjected to one of these "kangaroo courts" could sue under Title IX.

Also, if he was drunk, doesn't that also make her a rapist according to the same standard?

Anonymous said...

"I had to laugh reading that wiki."

That's why I posted it. I knew you'd catch that bit.

Anonymous said...

In 1992, at about this time of year, a boy I knew sexually assaulted me. We were undergraduates at Wesleyan University. He was a member of a sports team, and I was one of the team's managers. Away at a tournament one night, the team decided to party in the captains' hotel room, and I decided to prove I was "one of the guys" by trying to match them drink for drink. When I failed, I stumbled back to my room and crawled into bed to pass out. That's when I discovered he'd followed me there.

How do we know this girl is not lying?? To say girls never, ever, ever lie about rape shows you are not paying attention here. I would like to hear the boys side of the story.

Once bitten said...

Hi,

This site is a godsend for me, honestly I thought I was alone in what I went through, and whilst I wouldn't wish f.r.a on my worst enemy, to some extent it's a relief to see that I am not alone in my experiences.

My life was turned upside down nearly 10 years ago by f.r.a, when I found myself in the nightmare situation of having two police officer's telling me I was going to be charged with rape on the word of a woman and on her word alone, and that it would depend on who the jury believed on the day as to whether or not I would be going to jail. Before then I believed that the police had to have evidence before they could charge you (this happened over in Australia.) I was informed that the laws had changed that my accuser's statement was all the evidence the police needed.

Please don't get me wrong, I can't fault the police here. They were professional, and treated me with courtesy and respect in what was for me the most traumatic day of my life. It would take twelve full months of stress and anxiety before the matter was heard at court. A time during which I seriously contemplated suicide.

When the matter went to court evidence was uncovered that my accuser had lied to police. She was also shown to have been lying under oath. Despite this, the case ended up with a hung jury. It would have gone on to a retrial, but the matter was dismissed by the department of public prosecutions, all charges dropped, and my record was expunged. However, m accuser was allowed to bring a domestic violence order against me because she feared I would try and get her back for the false accusations. I disputed her claims but accepted the order, as I had no intention of going anywhere near her anyway. When I asked my lawyers if my accuser would be charged with perjury I was told that they only did that for serious matters.

Eventually, I put the matter behind me, but I soon discovered that I couldn't work in my chosen career because of the charges (I had to disclose if I had ever been charged or convicted of sexual assault). Then the nightmares of being taken away and put in prison begun, along with my deep distrust of women and society in general. A situation that wasn't helped when a feminist counsellor that I went to for treatment told me that women don't make rape accusations up, and that she couldn't understand why I was so traumatised seeing how I had got off the charges.

Fortunately time heals, I am now married to a wonderful woman, and rebuilding my life. I'm a bit concerned about the fact that if I wish to travel overseas that some countries require me to disclose on immigration forms that I was charged with an offence. I can understand if I was convicted, but just being charged doesn't seem fair to me. It upsets me greatly that my accuser was allowed to get away with making these false accusations. Still, all I can do is take things one step at a time, and hope that law changes are introduced to make the system fairer. Don't get me wrong, rape is a heinous crime and those who commit such crimes should be punished. However, I firmly believe that there has to be a way where the actual rapist victim gets justice, and the false rape accuser is punished. Because false rape accusations can mess up a person's life for years, even if they aren't found guilty.

Snark said...

"A situation that wasn't helped when a feminist counsellor that I went to for treatment told me that women don't make rape accusations up, and that she couldn't understand why I was so traumatised seeing how I had got off the charges."

Ah, yes.

The more compassionate, empathic sex.

scott said...

ONCE BITTEN SAYS
"This site is a godsend for me, honestly I thought I was alone in what I went through, and whilst I wouldn't wish f.r.a on my worst enemy, to some extent it's a relief to see that I am not alone in my experiences."
scott says..this is exactly what i said when i found this site.

Sonja Newcombe said...

"However true it may be that it's safer not to get drunk [...] it's not like young women don't already hear about the risks from parents, college administrations, the nightly news, or any of the 25 "CSI" or "Law and Order" clones on TV."

So they KNOW the risks, but ignore them anyway, then cry when they reap the consequences of their actions.

All sympathy has been lost.

Anonymous said...

"I never even tried to shove that guy off of me, something that I now know I could have easily done, even drunk, even if he was bigger than me, which honestly, he wasn't."

Uh not a rape case at all and still seen as one??

Anonymous said...

What???!!!

When I was in college I was taught that a woman would never ever, ever, ever lie about rape! Ever!

I was lied to.

anonfair said...

Saint Sonja blames the victim:

So they KNOW the risks, but ignore them anyway, then cry when they reap the consequences of their actions.

So you NEVER broke parental rules and took risks even though your parents TOLD you the possible consequences. Well aren't we squeaky clean.

Fact is, kids feel invincible although they're inexperienced. Males and females alike have an "I can handle anything" attitude. No matter how much you want to blame women for their "actions" by excusing rapists, rape is the solely the fault of the rapist.

AfOR said...

Except rape is as rare as rocking horse shit, but false rape accusations are as common as apple pie.

anonfair said...

Did you read the same time I did?

The assailant agreed to plead no contest to the charges if if the victim agreed to hear him out. She spent an hour and a half in a dean's office, listening to the rapist as he wept about his family history of alcoholism. The rapist was EXPELLED, and she was issued a GAG order.

This procedure is not at all unusual on many campuses.

Anonymous said...

To be sure, I have never been raped, but I doubt anyone who has been raped has woken up during surgery and remained concious for several minutes either, and you will never convince me that the two things are even on the same planet, much less comparable.
And yet, regaining consciousness during surgery is a walk in the fucking park compared to a False Rape Accusation.


I guess it depends on the surgery.

AfOR said...

Anon @ 5:32

I guess it depends on the surgery.

Well, in your case, if it was brain surgery for example, you clearly wouldn't feel a thing.

scott said...

How do we know any part of this story at all is true???

Anonymous said...

Once Bitter: you said you had the arrest expunged. In this case you do not have to ever answer to anyone that you have been arrested and may answer,no. When something is expunged it means that in contemplation of law that it never happened. Of course, this won't help you if your name was printed in a paper and people will know.

Anonymous said...

"How do we know any part of this story at all is true???"

We can't,the truth is not easy to know in this case.He maybe believed that he raped her after she later thought it was rape.He was drunk also right?
She even sounds like she accepted sex at that time and was aware of her situation,but maybe didn't like it later?(stupid assuming)
Pleading guilty doesn't mean anything here,because there is too much missing information about the case from what the man was saying.I mean how drunk was he?

Anonymous said...

When I hear about "rape" cases I just laugh. Any female who puts herself alone with a man, especially after drinking with him, is just asking for it. And besides, what's the big concern about having had sex one more time? If she's had a 100 pricks in her who cares about the 101 st. haha Let her learn the hard way if she's a drunk slut.

Archivist said...

Anonfair, you miss the point of the post. We don't know what happened, and neither do you unless you are Ms.Friedman or the man (note I call him a "man" instead of a "boy"). At this site, merely because someone claims she was raped, or merely because she claims a plea bargain or secret deal was made, doesn't mean a rape occured, or that we should believe it.

When you say that one of our commentators blamed the "victim," you assume something we won't -- that someone is a victim merely because she says she was.

Sorry. Won't fly here.

Anonymous said...

When I hear about "rape" cases I just laugh. Any female who puts herself alone with a man, especially after drinking with him, is just asking for it. And besides, what's the big concern about having had sex one more time? If she's had a 100 pricks in her who cares about the 101 st. haha Let her learn the hard way if she's a drunk slut.

****

I disagree, and frankly I suspect that this is a feminist troll.

Anonymous said...

Most college age men are so brainwashed today that they may even believe that they have done something when in fact they have done nothing.

Snark said...

So, apparently, she could have pushed him off, but she did not.

She could have said "no" or "I'm not interested" or "don't," but she did not.

She could have given even a slight indication that she did not want to have sex, but she did not.

Every human action, wilfully taken, serves the self. Every action. Whether it's an impulsive action or an action the benefits of which shall be reaped over the long term. Self-sacrifice is for the benefit of the self, because the self cares so deeply for those who are sacrificed for; it would hurt the self more to see them in pain, than it would to make the sacrifice.

The most benevolent actions serve the self, either in terms of conscience, or to appease a deity, or to be in good standing with others.

When you realise this, you will understand that this woman decided not to show her disinterest in the man, of her own free will, because such an action was to her benefit.

One could claim that in some rape cases, women do not say "no" or "stop" because they fear becoming the victims of violence if they do, which would be of greater detriment to their selves.

Not so in many cases, such as this one. This woman chose to omit her disinterest, because doing so was of benefit to her, in a way that cannot be reduced to the avoidance of violence.

Now, why might this be.

Once bitten said...

"Once Bitter: you said you had the arrest expunged. In this case you do not have to ever answer to anyone that you have been arrested and may answer,no. When something is expunged it means that in contemplation of law that it never happened. Of course, this won't help you if your name was printed in a paper and people will know."

Thanks for that advice. I guess I always try to answer questions on offical forms honestly. So when I read questions like "Have you ever been charged?" I feel like I have to say yes.

I am also concerned that there may still be records people can access somehow. I remember being told that even though the record had been expunged, just the fact that you had been changed was recorded as a matter of public record. Having said that I don't know if such information is correct or not. I've always played by the it's best to be honest policy.

Anonymous said...

'When I hear about "rape" cases I just laugh. Any female who puts herself alone with a man, especially after drinking with him, is just asking for it. And besides, what's the big concern about having had sex one more time? If she's had a 100 pricks in her who cares about the 101 st. haha Let her learn the hard way if she's a drunk slut."

Troll

Snark said...

Of course it's a feminist troll.

The very fact that we immediately identify it as such should tell her enough about what we do and do not stand for.

Not that such things make a difference to children or fantasists.

Anonymous said...

Any female who puts herself alone with a man, especially after drinking with him, is just asking for it.

OMG, I rest my case. Hey, the damn slut deserved it, right!
Let's hear a big cheer for the poor rapist who is in NO WAY at fault here.

Snark said...

It was probably you who made that post ...

anonfair said...

Snark, I made the 9:03, and I'm not a troll.

Archivist said...

"Let's hear a big cheer for the poor rapist who is in NO WAY at fault here."

That's what passes for wit and incisive sarcasm among the angry feminist crowd.

If he raped her, we have no sympathy for him, ma'am.

It's just that I'm not prepared to take the word of some rape advoate that she was raped without knowing the facts. Get it?

Snark said...

"Snark, I made the 9:03, and I'm not a troll."

Then understand that that post you quoted WAS made by a feminist troll.

anonfair said...

Snark, in that case, posters should be required to register with a legitimate name (handle).

john halder said...

hello! i giaurantee you one thing. im no goddamn troll!
my name is john halder. im anti_misandrist
on twitter. for decades ive railed against the femidolts. but in particular. one-tori amos
yes. the singer-songwriter, creator of rainn
believe it or not, im a fan of her music, but her misandrist pro-'victim'anti-heterosexual agenda alienated me.she wrote a song and performed it at 100's of her concerts. you might be familiar with it. 'me and a gun' about her SUPPOSED 'rape'. later, she would tweak the story surrounding the song, her 'rape'. 'its not autobiographical'. ooops. it wasnt a gun, it was knife'
man, i got HEAT for 'daring' to question her story. NO evidence of course, and even she admits she VOLUNTARILY took a ride offerred from a fan of hers after a show early in her career from someone SHE knew! while he drove her around looking for druhs(and she has subsequently admitted to doing drugs on MANY occasions) he 'asaulted' me. questioned as to why she never pressed charges, she answered 'it was the 80's, no one would have believed me'. rigght. like many of her songs, its NOT autobiographical, BUT 'DARE' to suggest to her misandrist fans? they want to kill ya! and this, coming from me. ive been to a LOT of her shows. for the music. NOT her agenda. anywway. as i mentioned before, im anti_misandrist on twitter and i need followers! cya, john halde

Anonymous said...

gender / Raunch feminists like to make straw men...then attack that straw man; (not unlike don-Quiote) so everyone can witness them attacking the straw man.

john halder said...

hello again. i rt (retweet) mensrightsblogs posts on twitter all the time. falserapesociety is the BOMB. why should i , or anyone AUTOMATICALLY believe, without question anyones statement of rape!? i require EVIDENCE! whats wrong with that? oh, just me being branded a 'misogynist' 500 times.the best article ive read online? 'feminist shaming language'. wow, ive heard that ENTIRE list of 'comments' from women for years! in femarica, signing out, john halder

Anonymous said...

AFOR: for that type of surgery you should have just had a local anesthetic. Take some morphine if you're the type that gets afraid. At least you'll be awake and your natural bodily fuctions and reflexes will be operating. General anesthesia should always be avoided unless there is no choice.

Anonymous said...

First off Sonya you are a REAL Woman not some whining infant like these feminists...I wish all Women were like you.


I grew up with girls who got drunk and slept around like it was their job. They did NOT go around saying they were raped.


I also TOTALLY AGREE with the comments made by so many people in this thread who doubt someone's stories without any PROOF.

I have known such liars in my life that I need more to go on than just someone's WORD in these stories.

To me I don't conclude that the sex was consensual. I don't know for sure that you ever even had sex with anyone to begin with.

This woman in the story might have never even been touched by a male in 4 years of college...if she even went to college.

Anonymous said...

Evidence shows rape allegations false


'MANKATO — Text messages saved by an Iowa man, as well as reports from other witnesses, helped get him released from jail and out from under false rape charges.

http://mankatofreepress.com/local/x1897238975/Evidence-shows-rape-allegations-false


http://news.mensactivism.org/node/14870

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
When I hear about "rape" cases I just laugh. Any female who puts herself alone with a man, especially after drinking with him, is just asking for it. And besides, what's the big concern about having had sex one more time? If she's had a 100 pricks in her who cares about the 101 st. haha Let her learn the hard way if she's a drunk slut.

****

I disagree, and frankly I suspect that this is a feminist troll.

Mar 21, 2010 6:38:00 PM

---------------------------------

So do I.

Anonymous said...

Woman arrested for false rape claim

'LAS CRUCES, N.M. (AP) - Police say a Las Cruces woman has been arrested for falsely claiming that she had been sexually assaulted.

Police say 20-year-old Michelle Holcomb is charged with one count of filing a false police report. She's jailed at the Dona Ana County Detention Center on $1,000 bond.
http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S1468015.shtml?cat=504

Police, deputies charge women with filing false reports

'PANAMA CITY BEACH — A woman who accused a sheriff's deputy, a jail officer and a club security guard of rape has been charged with filing a false crime report in addition to disorderly conduct.

Kimberly Mills, 22, of McDonough, Ga., was taken to the Bay County Jail early Monday after a sheriff's deputy said she locked a friend out of their hotel room, fought with her and resisted when he tried to intervene.
http://www.newsherald.com/articles/panama-82303-beach-police.html

'Year of Hell' after false rape claim

'A Mangakino man falsely accused of raping a 14-year-old girl says the stigma is something he'll never be able to shake.

Leonard Joseph, 42, is a shattered man. The pain and distress the ordeal have caused him and his family are evident on his face as he relives his "year of hell".

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/3479094/Year-of-hell-after-false-rape-claim

Anonymous said...

I apologize if these news reports have already been run or set to run.

Anonymous said...

I just wanted everyone to be aware of them.

Anonymous said...

Hi everyone
My name is Tom, Im 38 yrs old, living in Fort Worth, TX.

I'd love to make good close friends here.

Take care!

Anonymous said...

anonfair said...
Saint Sonja blames the victim:

So they KNOW the risks, but ignore them anyway, then cry when they reap the consequences of their actions.

So you NEVER broke parental rules and took risks even though your parents TOLD you the possible consequences. Well aren't we squeaky clean.

Fact is, kids feel invincible although they're inexperienced. Males and females alike have an "I can handle anything" attitude. No matter how much you want to blame women for their "actions" by excusing rapists, rape is the solely the fault of the rapist.

Mar 21, 2010 5:13:00 PM
-----------------------------------

Let's be fair, Anonfair - if Miss "One Of The Boys" had gotten into her Subaru and plowed into a family of four, she would most CERTAINLY be responsible for her drunken behavior.

Ask any drunk - they can ALL drive just fine.

As a woman myself, I can say yes. I AM squeaky clean when it come to having NEVER driven while drunk, and have managed to NEVER put myself in a dangerous position while drinking.

It wasn't worth it to me to cry after the fact so I took precaution BEFORE the fact.

It's what SMART, INTELLIGENT, and RESPONSIBLE women do.

If your parents told you not to drink and drive, and you do it anyway - your ass is going to be blamed, you are NOT a "victim".

If your parents told you NEVER to drink to oblivion with people who don't know or give a shit about you, and you do it anyway - you are plain S T U P I D.


I have worked as a counselor, and told young girls this very thing - only to have them come back crying to me when what I told them would happen happened exactly as I said it would.

Yes, guys get drunk and bad things happen to them ,too. They get ZERO sympathy. ZERO. What guy is EVER afforded sympathy for something bad that happens because he got drunk and put himself in a bad position?

Heads up Anonfair - stupid is as stupid does.

Anonymous said...

There is not need to force 'handles' on posters, Anonfair.

Trolls are quickly apparent - any one with an average intelligence can spot a bogus post.

Frankly I LOVE it that someone would try such a obvious scam - only to get their ass called on it.

Snark said...

Anon @ 10:37, I couldn't agree more.

anonfair said...

Yes and No.

Yes --- If a young woman under the influence of alcohol plows into a family of four and kills them she is guilty of a crime -- DUI Vehicular Manslaughter.

No --- If a young woman under the influence of alcohol gets raped, the rapist is guilty of the crime of RAPE.

Not all young women are SMART, INTELLIGENT, AND RESPONSIBLE, but lack thereof does NOT constitute a CRIME.

Why don't you people GET IT?

Snark said...

anonfair, I agree with what you just wrote.

But this website is about FALSE RAPE ACCUSATIONS.

How can YOU not get THAT? Are you really incapable of separating the crime of rape from the crime of making a false allegation?

It's called The False Rape Society, for God's sake ... apparently the entire purpose of this site passed you by.

I will never understand why angsty feminists feel the need to come to a site about FALSE ALLEGATIONS, and get on their soapboxes about RAPE.

The purpose of this site isn't to condone rape - DUH.

Opposing false accusations doesn't mean we support rape - DUH.

And then you say that we "don't get it."

YOU don't get it, you unbelievable idiot.

Anonymous said...

@AnonFair:

"Yes and No.

Yes --- If a young woman under the influence of alcohol plows into a family of four and kills them she is guilty of a crime -- DUI Vehicular Manslaughter.

No --- If a young woman under the influence of alcohol gets raped, the rapist is guilty of the crime of RAPE.

Not all young women are SMART, INTELLIGENT, AND RESPONSIBLE, but lack thereof does NOT constitute a CRIME.

Why don't you people GET IT?"

If it were only that simple. Both situations require REASON and ACCOUNTABILITY. And it is easy to set up straw-man arguments in an attempt to prove a point.

The fact is that we are accountable for own lives but it does not mean we are to blame for everything that happens to us. On the other hand, if someone intentionally alters their mental state and capacity and they either cause harm to others or bring harm upon themselves (rape, murder, or a case of crabs) due to their diminished capacity, who is really to blame? If we take alcohol out of the picture, then it's vehicular manslaughter and a case of rape (which still needs to be proven by detailed, beyond-a-reasonable doubt, evidence). No one is guilty of anything until it is proven. And this is why "we don't get it." I have no issue with your argument, merely that semantics, over-simplification, and assumptions on both sides of the argument make it difficult for us to agree with you (or for you to see our points).

Anonymous said...

Anonfair: Not all young women are SMART, INTELLIGENT, AND RESPONSIBLE, but lack thereof does NOT constitute a CRIME.

Why don't you people GET IT?
-----------------------------------

Are you saying the proliferation of rape on campus is because the women are NOT smart, intelligent and responsible?

How did they get into college? Affirmative action?

Name ONE 'excuse' a male could possibly use starting with " I got drunk..." and find himself a sympathetic ear.

All men are not smart, intelligent and responsible, but they are held accountable for their drunkeness at all times.

AnyMan: "I got drunk, beaten up and robbed!"

TheWorld: "That's what you get for being stupid enough to put yourself in a dangerous position. No mercy."

Anonfair, women to woman, If you don't hold your body valuable enough to take even the most basic precautions to protect it - NOBODY ELSE IS GOING TO EITHER.

I know you THINK they should. God knows we each and everyone deserve it.

But realistically speaking? The rape bell never gets unrung. You live with it for the rest of your life. WHY would you take such stupid chances with something you can never replace?

If you want to play damsel in distress and take chances with yur body like that, DON'T drag me into it. I don't condone rape, but I don't condone stupid behavior either.

I've been threatened at knife point by a man who announced he was just out of prison "and I want a woman".

(I talked my way out of it, believe it or not - but it could have gone badly).

THAT is rape, my dear.

"I got drunk with the team, and he followed me home and....but....well...hmmmm
Now I'm a victim, all bow before me?"

Give me a flippin' break.

slwerner said...

anonfair - "Why don't you people GET IT?"

I suspect that what you don't "get" is that a significant proportion of the supposed drunken date-rapes amount to little more than a women waking up the next day (or, as is quite common, telling her friends about it, only to receive negative feedback), and coming to the conclusion that they now regret having had sex with someone.

The (simplified) mental gymnastics then routinely become: "I was drunk, therefore I am not responsible for what I did, and therefore, I was raped"

The overwhelming majority of those of us who frequent this site understand full well that sometime women are forced into sex against their will. And, we recognize such instance to be rape.

However, what we question is the validity of the notion, often forwarded by gender-feminists that anytime a woman has been drinking (or using drugs) she, and she alone, is exempt from having been able to form the specific intent to have consented to sex. Essentially, even if she said "yes" - even if she initiated the sex - she cannot have consented, and, therefore, if she feels any regret about it, it can automatically be classified as a rape.

We "get" that such instances are NOT rapes. Is there something you don't "get" about that?

Anonymous said...

To tell a man "That's what happens when you put yourself in that position" does not condone the robber.

Telling a woman "That's what happens when you put yourself in that position" does not condone the rapist.

TT

anonfair said...

"To tell a man "That's what happens when you put yourself in that position" does not condone the robber.
Telling a woman "That's what happens when you put yourself in that position" does not condone the rapist."


Finally, something I agree with.

anonfair said...

How did a smart, intelligent, responsible woman like yourself get held at knife point by a potential rapist? You no doubt had a momentary lapse of judgement when you put yourself in such a dangerous situation. Please rethink your behavior to prevent it from happening again.

slwerner said...

anonfair - "How did a smart, intelligent, responsible woman like yourself get held at knife point by a potential rapist?"

Who, exactly, are you asking this of?

The only reference to a knife that I can find in this entire thread is John Halder discussing Tori Amos' account of having been raped. [hint - Tori Amos probably doesn't read this blog]

Snark said...

"Finally, something I agree with."

That's what we've ALL been saying, dimwit.

Snark said...

anonfair, don't pick fights because you have poor reading comprehension. I understand that it must frustrate you, but you're just embarassing yourself more.

Once Bitten said...

@slwerner, I believe anonfair is refering to anonymous post May 22 @ 12:26pm. At least that the date and time stamp on my system for the post.

@anonfair

No one here condones rape. Personally I can't believe the comment you made to that poster. Reading their post I can't see how any irresponsible behaviour on their part lead to them being threatened at knife-point by an ex-con with rape.

False rape accusations ruin lives for those so accused and make the lives of real rape victims all the more harder. That is what this site doesn't condone.

With regards to getting drunk and engaging in one night stands, my personal viewpoint is that it's stupid behaviour on both sides of the coin.

One it opens up the possibilty of false rape accusations being made against either of the parties involved, and two it opens up the possiblity of having a sexual relationship with a person that may regretted later on.

Personally there's no way I would want to put myself in that situation. Please note this situation is completely different to that of a prediator who drugs an unsuspecting victim and rapes them.

In the former situation, both parties have engaged in what I consider to be irresponsible and stupid behaviour. In the later situation, a criminal committed a crime against an innocent victim and should be punished.

Anonymous said...

Anonfair, I'm a die-hard MRA and anti-nifongist, and I have no problem telling you to fuck off. Take your pro-rape blame-the-victim mentality somewhere else.

Besides, you're really a feminist trying to make us look like criminals. So fuck off.

Anonymous said...

To reiterate, I'm saying this because Anonfair is up there saying that it is somehow a woman's fault if she has a knife held to her throat -- not that we should be skeptical when a woman makes such an accusation, but if there is no doubt about the truth of the claim.

Which is bullshit, and the kind of thinking that belongs in the penitentiary. Once again, I am 100% pro-false accusation victim, and therefore opposed to asshole feminist trolls who are trying to drag us down into a moral sewer.

anonfair said...

Please note this situation is completely different to that of a prediator who drugs an unsuspecting victim and rapes them.

I appreciate your honesty, and please understand that the drug-rape scenario you describe above is not an uncommon occurrence on campuses throughout our country.

Today's article in the Washington Post deals with "how rape is treated on campus". Note that you have an extremely biased crowd here that downplays legitimate rape.

At the same time, I agree that over the years false accusations have evolved.

I believe the situation is urgent, both for the rape victim and the falsely accused.

Once Bitten said...

anonfair -"I appreciate your honesty, and please understand that the drug-rape scenario you describe above is not an uncommon occurrence on campuses throughout our country.

*snip* Note that you have an extremely biased crowd here that downplays legitimate rape.

At the same time, I agree that over the years false accusations have evolved.

I believe the situation is urgent, both for the rape victim and the falsely accused."

Extremists can be found in every crowd, having said that, I do not believe that it is the intention or desire for members of this community to downplay legitimate rape. From the short time that I've been here I observed that a lot of these people are survivors of false rape accusations. Most people have no idea of the pain and trauma someone who has been falsely accused of rape goes through. Whilst I can't speak for other people, at a guess, I would say that some of the strong reactions you see on this site come from people whose own personal memories of being false accused are being triggered. Speaking from personal experience I can tell you that such reactions are often misunderstood (if they are understood at all).

My own situation with false rape accusations can be read a few posts up, but if I may I'd like to share something else. I have an interesting perspective on this, because I am an abuse survivor as well. Approximately two years before I had false rape accusations made against me, I tried to take action to prevent my abuser from harassing me. I was told by the police, that the only way to do that was to 'take a domestic violence order out on my abuser and to do that I would have to prove that I had been abused and the chances of me doing so were next to non-existent.' So I decided to let the matter drop, and did my best to avoid my abuser and ignore any contact they made with me.

I would see and hear stories about those accused of being abused / raped, and I would get all indignant. I remember telling friends that 'victims don't make this stuff up.'

Then I was falsely accused myself, and I learnt that human beings are human beings, regardless of age, race, gender or creed, and that human beings can and do lie if the situation benefits them. I also learnt that the general public and the media are not privy to everything that goes on in a court room, and how important it is to know all the facts about a court case before making a decision on the accused 'guilt'.

I agree with your statement that the situation is urgent, both for the rape victim and the falsely accused. In fact, I sincerely believe that most here would agree with you on that statement. The legal system must be fair and impartial. Those that can be proven to have knowingly made false accusations should be answerable for their behaviour as should the rapists.

Facts and fairness, not emotions and hysteria, should govern the legal system. The media or anyone else should not be able to name accused people or label someone a victim until it has been proven before a court of law that a crime took place. I say that, both as an abuse victim, and as someone who has been falsely accused.

As a side issue, as I don't live in the USA, I wasn't even aware that a body such as campus police existed. Are they a division of the normal police force or just private security?

Archivist said...

"Note that you have an extremely biased crowd here that downplays legitimate rape."

We don't focus on basketball here, either, but that doesn't mean we downplay legitimte basketball.

I'd suggest that if you are looking for a rape site, there are plenty to choose from. Please respect our topic here and don't attempt to transmogrify our site to suit your personal agenda.

Thank you.

Anonymous said...

Downplays it compared to what? For decades feminists have been insisting that false rape accusations don't matter because rape is the worst crime ever; worse than murder!

But guess what? It's better to get raped than to be falsely accused. That's just a fact, not a matter of downplaying rape.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
To tell a man "That's what happens when you put yourself in that position" does not condone the robber.

Telling a woman "That's what happens when you put yourself in that position" does not condone the rapist.

TT

Mar 22, 2010 12:44:00 PM

Telling men who have been falsely accused of rape that they shouldn't have put themselves in that position is also wrong. I'm just saying.

Snark said...

"We don't focus on basketball here, either, but that doesn't mean we downplay legitimte basketball."

Ha! Brilliant.

Last Anon: there is no position a man can be in, to be secure in knowing he will not be falsely accused.

Some victims of false accusations had their names picked at random from a yearbook. Think about that.

Anonymous said...

The bottom line here is there is no debating the perverted hysterics on this. We must return to the constitution of the united states which clearly states federal dollars cannot be used to discriminate.
Right now the gender feminist / law enforcement ALLIANCE is in effect using federal VAWA dollars to manufacture faulty and inflammatory misinformation which is manufacturing a prejudice...which violates the constitution.

Anonymous said...

Gender feminist perverted pigs.

slwerner said...

Once Bitten - "@slwerner, I believe anonfair is refering to anonymous post May 22 @ 12:26pm."

I see that, now. Upon reading anonfair's comment, I could recall a mention of a knife, so I entered that word into Firefox's "find" feature, which highlighted only the instance by anonfair, and the use by john halder.

I cannot explain how it missed the other instance, but never-the-less I would extend my apology to anonfair for my error and any misjudgment of the intent of his/her post.

anonfair said...

Slewner, love is never having to say you're sorry ;)

Snark said...

"Slewner, love is never having to say you're sorry ;)"

Then I suppose rape is forcing guilt onto half the population.

Anonymous said...

But it seems that this woman was ACTUALLY raped! The man accused admitted it with the excuse of his family and alcohol problems. WHY are we picking apart a girl that was an ACTUAL victim to a traumatizing event? You go on and on about how false accusation is wrong when the example you use is NOT a false accusation.