I must confess that I have a colossal lack of respect for people who wallow in the pretentious gibberish of social sciences. My disdain borders on a sort of snobbery, I am quite certain, but it's a snobbery that is well-founded. You see, I have made a lot of money in my career representing all manner of clients, including many of the world's best known companies, crafting arguments backed by reason and expressed with clarity. In my profession, the best practitioners strive to write clearly, with as few words as possible. We do not resort to emotional conclusory labels, and we back up our assertions with authority. In my undergraduate days, I graduated summa cum laude from a major U.S. university -- in a social studies field -- and I know how to "talk the talk." But I don't. Not any more. It serves no purpose other than to anoint the writer as someone who is a member of "the club."
Feminist theorists wouldn't cut it in my world. These are people who have wet dreams discrediting with byzantine, pretentious blather, and crabbed and angry prose, things they don't agree with by talking about "peer review" and whether a certain theory originated in second or third wave feminism, and by tacking on conclusory, discussion-ending, "I am right, you are wrong/evil/a misogynist," labels.
You get the point.
I had one of those cringe-inducing moments reading the comments of someone who wallows in that witchcraft -- a cartoonist, of all things, named Barry Deutsch. Mr. Deutsch responded to Chad Hermann's piece on the one-in-whatever canard, with some of the conclusory labels noted above. Deutsch, who is also feminist blogger, defended the partisan Koss report and declared that its critics have been discredited.
We could write for days on the Koss report and similar studies generated by the sexual grievance industry. We don't need to. Here is all you need to know about Koss. An article in the Psychology of Women Quarterly (1988) provided additional data on howKoss's purported victims labeled their experience. Among other things, forty-nine percent labeled the experience a "miscommunication." Many others said it wasn't a crime, etc.
But the "miscommunication" label is a problem for anyone who wants to declare that the women were raped (unless you simply choose to discount it). It raises a very serious question about whether there was an absence of "consent," a legal concept that doesn't crop up much in the world of cartooning.
"Consent" does not refer to an accuser's subjective or secret desires, whims, or beliefs. "Consent" refers to her outward, objective manifestations of willingness to engage in sexual relations. Those outward manifestations of assent need not be in words; they need not even be "enthusiastic" (there are some people who don't show "entuhsiasm" for anything). I am 100% certain that a lot of college women are conflicted and don't really want to engage in intercourse but do so for any number of reasons, good, bad, or indifferent (and here I am not referring to those who are incapable of making a decision because they are intoxicated). The problem is -- and here's where the "miscommunication" label is important -- that if a reasonable person in the position of the college guy understands there was consent, that's the end of the issue (some states make his belief subjective, but the trend is to move away from that to an objective standard). The result is that young women sometimes feel used and sometimes they really didn't want to have sex, and sometimes they transform those legitimate angry or regretful feelings into a belief that they were raped when, in fact, that's not what happened. Sometimes it is dangerously "close" to rape; and, yes, sometimes it can lead to false rape claims.
Koss's report is fatally flawed for that reason, and others I don't need to go into.
I have a problem with rape surveys in any event, because none of the ones conducted in the U.S. examine the alleged incident that is claimed to be rape to assess its merits. What I hear from feminists is, "why would women lie in a survey?"'
OK, so why would men lie? Unless you choose to believe men are inherently liars when it comes to rape. Only one in 12 college men responding to the same Koss survey admitted committing acts that met the legal definition of rape or attempted rape. Hmm. I wonder why we don't hear much about the men?
You know what all this sounds like? Lots and lots of miscommunication -- the very thing that half of the Koss "victims" said was going on. It sounds like our young men and women are operating from different perspectives, and it would be the height of sexism to insist the men MUST be wrong. It sounds like our young men and women need to be better educated about the fact that men and women generally have different ideas going in: men want sex more than women, and women have greater ex post facto regret after one-night-stands. A recipe for miscommunication and false rape claims -- but likely far fewer rapes than Mary Koss and her partisan ilk want to admit.
Anyway, why do we have to lie and transform rape an epidemic before we consider it worthy of our attention? Some serious feminists, including one who ran a rape prevention program at a major university, said that the seriousness of rape "is being undermined by the growing tendency of some feminists to label all heterosexual miscommunication and insensitivity as acquaintance rape."
I would add this. All of the studies that show rape is rampant are conducted by partisans. Does anyone really think someone who has made a career insisting that rape is a problem, that women are subjugated, and that males are undeservedly privileged, will conduct a study that finds rape is not an epidemic? You want to find an umpire for a World Series game at Yankee Stadium? You don't put a diehard Yankees fan behind the plate. In the real world, judges recuse themselves from cases when they have an interest in advancing a position they're supposed to rule on.
Saturday, December 12, 2009
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50 comments:
I *hate* that word "consent".
I consent to sitting in a dentists chair.
I consent to abide by an injunction.
I consent to being taxed.
I have never in my life consented to sex, I was always much more interested and eager than that.
Did she consent to sex?
Hell no, she was gagging for it.
AfOR
Social science has been completely debunked when it comes to the men-women. As Warren Farrel said in his strongly positive review of 'The Woman Racket', "[This book proves that] the social scientists have gotten it wrong, and the feminists have gotten it backwards."
should say "when it comes to men-women", i.e., the sexes.
@AfOR...
Agree with your dislike of consent.
The framing of rape as being about consent is quite deliberate. It has allowed feminists to define virtually any sex as rape merely through the absence of verbal communication.
I've been maintaining for a very long time that rape requires coercion of some form whether physical or otherwise.
The silliness of the consent definition is that consent can be forced. And there are many means of coercion other than the physical.
Sorry, guys. Lack of consent is and has long been the standard, and it works. If consent is forced so that it's really not freely given, it's not consent. Consent doesn't need to be enthusiastic, and the law doesn't care WHY a woman consents -- she might feel consrtained for reasons that are her own. It's still consent.
The standard isn't the problem. The liars and their enablers are.
Be careful Pierce.
Consent applies to both genders.
And clearly that long held standard doesn't work else we wouldn't be here to begin with.
I still hold that rape - not the legal definition - requires coercion of some form.
"I still hold that rape - not the legal definition - requires coercion of some form"
I agree. I guess the usual assumption, at least in the past, is that if a woman refused consent it meant she was being coerced in some way. Maybe they need to come up with a new kind of 'crime' of some sort for in-between cases, though in the past that wasn't necessary because women were more likely to be assertive if a man 'tried to pull something' - it was all part of the dating game, until some point in the 80's the victim feminists started to have an effect.
The problem is that you can't legislate comfort, but that is in fact what the system has been trying to do.
"The framing of rape as being about consent is quite deliberate. It has allowed feminists to define virtually any sex as rape merely through the absence of verbal communication."
This. 'No means no' was perfectly fine. If you're told to stop, you stop. If you don't, it's a rape; it allows some leeway for women to be shitty, but that's sort of beside the point.
But it somehow became 'yes means yes', by which they mean ONLY 'yes' means yes, and the ABSENCE of a 'yes' makes it a rape. This notion is based on those ridiculous feminazi quotes we've all heard and read: all sex is rape unless initiated by a woman, etc.
It's just not how the real world works. Often, men find that their partners want them to do all the work. She might be coming onto you all night and then end up just lying there waiting for you to do everything. It's not because she's not consenting, it's because she just likes it when a man takes control. But the absence of an outwardly enthusiastic 'yes' means that such encounters could be classified as 'rape' by some lunatics, regardless of how much she actually wanted it.
I know this firsthand, because - being aware of this paradigm - on a few occasions I've had to deny women anything at all because of their lack of enthusiasm - their lack of an explicit 'yes'.
Did they feel like they had just been 'almost raped'?
No. They were very frustrated. They were angry. They blamed me.
continued ...
This is another way in which Feminism Hurts Women Too. Ultimately, under feminism, everybody has sex less. For all their chattering about sexual liberation, when they criminalise a large measure of consensual sex - with severe penalties, only for men - then OBVIOUSLY men are going to be much less willing to sleep with women.
There are no doubts in my mind that the situations I described were -fully- consensual, judging by the reactions of the women when I refused to pursue any further.
But could I take that risk? No. The absence of an enthusiastic 'yes' means that I could have been in prison right now and on the sex offenders register for life - all depending on how she felt the next day.
So, it's just too bad that they had to go without. I can't say it bothered me nearly as much as them.
Gwallan, it worked fine for a long, long time until we abandoned corroboration and started arresting and jailing young men to appease political interests.
You need to be careful about "coercion" -- that term is so vague that from a legal perspective it means nothing, and as used by the feminists it means everything, including whining and begging for sex.
I think you mean that you'd like to see a return to the definition of rape of force. That is a different issue and one that I don't disagree with. The force element was long considered necessary to prove absence of consent. But consent itself has never been the issue.
OT, but interesting...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/women-go-online-to-share-child-sexabuse-fantasies-1839304.html
I don't like the "consent" word mainly because to my mind a prostitute "consents" to sex with a paying client.
If the client had no money, the prostitute would not bang his brains out anyway.
My (it has to be said, rather extensive) experience of sexual relations with women never featured anything like that, they were all as eager and willing as I was.
(yes, that includes my FRA's)
"consent" does not, to me at least, convey enthusiastic mutual participation.
AfOR
The Rape hysteria juggernaut forwards the gender feminist agenda.
You are all looking at "consent" in the wrong way. It just means that both parties manifest by conduct or words a willingness to have sex. Period. It works. "Coercion" on the other hand is a standard that does not work. There can be "coercion" AND "consent" (oh, come on, let's have sex -- you never want to have sex"). To the rape feminists, THATS'S rape, which tells you everything you need to know about them.
I hear you Pierce.
I understand the legal meaning of the word.
I just don't like uttering the word as a layman, when it comes out of my mouth, and when it goes into my ears, it doesn't sound right.
I guess it is like "without prejudice" (you can't quote me on this, but...)
AfOR
AFOR, if all of your sexual conquests flirted and made out with you before intercourse, maybe you misread their intentions, and mistakenly thought these women were "gaggling" to have sex with you. Just a thought for you to ponder, because as a woman, I am entitled to flirt, make out, and drink, but none of these behaviors spell 'consent'. Even if you think a woman's indications are obvious, you may be getting the wrong message.
Dear Anonymous Cunt Troll.
When a woman, of her own volition, gets on her knees and starts sucking my cock, I'm not mistaken about anything.
I have never "chatted up" a woman in my entire fucking life, 100% of all my sexual liaisons (and there have been a shit load of them) were initiated by the female.
I am not a fucking autistic cretin, unable to tell when a woman is gagging for it.
AfOR
"Even if you think a woman's indications are obvious, you may be getting the wrong message."
The legal test for rape is from the perspective of the alleged rapists -- did he reasonably believe there was consent? What YOU subjectively thought is of no moment.
Your language is obscene. Is that how you talked to all the women -- the ones who gaggled to have sex with you? It's baffling why they got anywhere near you. Angry controlling men are dangerous, not only to women, but to men as well.
Pierce: "The legal test for rape is from the perspective of the alleged rapists."
That is NOT the legal test.
"Angry controlling men are dangerous, not only to women, but to men as well."
It's funny - if women really don't have a preference for angry, controlling men, then why do they keep rewarding that behaviour?
"Even if you think a woman's indications are obvious, you may be getting the wrong message."
And the burden is on whom to make sure a man gets the right message?
The woman, logically.
Because if she's acting very enthusiastic about the whole thing, then obviously that can be taken as a 'yes'.
Why would she act enthusiastically if she did not want to participate?
It seems to me that you want to justify any rape accusation, even after she clearly consents to sex then changes her mind AFTERWARDS.
YOU are the problem. You are the reason why this site exists.
Anonymous 7:18
You find Afor's language extreme? offensive?
Go to a feminist site and tell a victim of rape that she brought on herself, that she asked for it so it wasn't rape. See what kind of a respose you get.
Afor is a victim of a false rape accusation, you are telling him that he brought it on himself......
Now do you see why your post is so offensive?
Also, Pierce is a lawyer with an active interest in rape cases. If he says something is a legal test I suggest you take his word for it unless you possess in depth legal knowledge of your own.
What's wrong with chatting someone up?
@ Anon 7:18:00
Hate to say it, but the term "Mens Rea" is often used in law and it IS the way of determining true consent in rape.
If the Man was unable to tell that consent was not given, or more correctly worded, the Man believed there to be consent based on the actions of the other party.
He is not guilty.
This does not mean "consent is assumed so you can rape away!" like most feminists think it does, it simply means if you spent your night rubbing up and down on him, making out with him, flirting with him, then go home with him and sleep naked in his bed, and when he gets on you to have sex you don't say "no" nor do you physical move to get him off you.
Then he is not guilty of a crime as he had no way of knowing it was unwanted sexual advances because your actions (which speak louder than words) told him "yes" enthusiastically.
This is the general standard of the law in most places, this however is being bypassed due to political and social pressure brought about by false rape statistics and THIS is what allows FRAs to get away with what they are doing.
Bringing us to the need for this site.
To Snark, who said, "Because if she's acting very enthusiastic about the whole thing, then obviously that can be taken as a 'yes'."
What you say the "whole thing", what are you talking about? What if a woman is enthusiastic up to a point, then draws the line before he whips it out. To continue against her will or consent is called rape.
If I were a man, I'd be scared chitless to have any kind of casual sex. This ain't the good old days when men could use and abuse a women, then spit her out.
@ Anon 9:13
There never were any "good ol' days" and you'd be fooling yourself if you thought so.
History is after all, written by the victor. Those history books have been amazingly altered... or should i say majorly omitted.
I removed my post because anonymous is either an idiot or a troll. Not worth responding to. She's drunk the feminist coolaid and it appears that to her any man who dares to have sex with a woman has raped her or not depending on how she feels about it later.
"If I were a man, I'd be scared chitless to have any kind of casual sex."
And are you happy with that state of affairs - where men are scared chitless [sic] to have sex? Is that your goal? Your objective? Is this better than any alternative?
"This ain't the good old days when men could use and abuse a women, then spit her out."
So you think that casual sex = rape? You just stated that men should be scared chitless [sic] of having casual sex - because they can no longer 'use and abuse' women. So do you believe that all sex is rape? Could it be possible that some casual sex is not rape? Or is that distinction not important to you?
In short: you are morally and intellectually bankrupt, you are more than happy for men to suffer horrendous injustices even when it does not benefit women, for no other reason than schadenfreude.
I wonder if the admins would consider IP banning trolls and deleting their posts? We need a space where we can talk without everything getting derailed. Feminists have never stopped short of banning any dissenting views, so why should we tolerate trolls?
Veldang, I looked up Mens Rea, and understand it to mean 'specific intent'. The example you gave is extreme. Any jury would conclude a 'not guilty' verdict.
I disagree that this 'general standard of law' is being bypassed as a result of political or social pressure. A jury does not have to succumb to outside pressures.
BTW, the history of the 'good ol days' is written by those who lived it -- not necessarily the victor.
Snark, what's a schaffenflutest?
You are morally and intellectually bankrupt, which is why you cannot answer my questions.
"I am entitled to flirt, make out, and drink, but none of these behaviors spell 'consent'."
Ah, sweet entitlement where there are no negative consequences to female behavior.
Entitled... wow.
Well that's just it!
The negative consequences for normal female behavior is very grave and should no longer be tolerated. That's what the outcry is all about.
If a woman flirts with you, makes out with you or drinks, don't assume these behaviors entitle you to her body.
The good ol days are gone.
Snark,
I'm not sure, but I don't think there's a way on Blogger to ban on IP address. That's why we were wrried that 'jeana' might have come back under a different alias- like 'Anonymous'. Hey, wait a minute...
should say, "that's why we were WORRIED..."
Snark said...
"Angry controlling men are dangerous, not only to women, but to men as well."
It's funny - if women really don't have a preference for angry, controlling men, then why do they keep rewarding that behaviour?
Dec 13, 2009 7:35:00 PM
Some women exhibit that behavior.
Femdom anyone? I think not.
Anonymous said...
To Snark, who said, "Because if she's acting very enthusiastic about the whole thing, then obviously that can be taken as a 'yes'."
What you say the "whole thing", what are you talking about? What if a woman is enthusiastic up to a point, then draws the line before he whips it out. To continue against her will or consent is called rape.
If I were a man, I'd be scared chitless to have any kind of casual sex. This ain't the good old days when men could use and abuse a women, then spit her out.
Dec 13, 2009 9:13:00 PM
"This ain't the good old days when men could use and abuse a women, then spit her out".
It makes sense to that these will be the "good ole days" when women can use men as scapegoats when they are not getting enought/the "right" kind of attention, use them for whatever purpose the woman has in mind then, when she's had enough, simply call the police and claim he raped/sexually assaulted her or, claim he committed some other act of violence toward/on her and have him thrown in jail or prison. What was that poular quote from the eighties/ninties I hear some women still say when speaking of theri changing of husbands, boyfriends and/or, male lovers? "Use them, abuse them throw them away for another".
"Some women exhibit that behavior."
Not All Women Are Liek Dat! omg
"If a woman flirts with you, makes out with you or drinks, don't assume these behaviors entitle you to her body."
If you actively engage in consensual sexual acts with a man, you aren't entitled to cry "rape" if you have regrets later on.
That's true as long as you understand that 'flirting, making out, and drinking' do NOT mean that a woman wants intercourse with you.
"as you understand that 'flirting, making out, and drinking' do NOT mean that a woman wants intercourse with you."
If you really cared about women being raped, you would better off spend your time on a women's board, teaching women how not to act like drunken whores. After all, from what you yourself have posted here, you 'know' that that behaviour can lead to rape.
But, you don't really care about rape victims, and you're definitely not interested in foisting any kind of responsible behaviour upon your sisters - the fact is that like any other feminist pigs, you simply have it in for men. But, how will you escape social oprobrium when judgment day arrives? I ask this because you sound young enough such that you will be around when things start to tilt the other way...as they always do.
Face it guys, feminism will not be recognized as a problem until it starts to affect women badly...though actually it has been for quite a while, but the 'woman in the street' (who is usually self-serving) is too stupid to consider this.
Your comment is precisely why the feminist movement is on full throttle. The justification you gave for rape is a view held by many. Historically, rape has been shrouded in secrecy, but that's no longer the case.
According to you, if a woman flirts, makes out, and drinks, she is a 'drunken whore', and she should KNOW these behaviors 'lead to rape'. Rape is never a victim's fault.
The oprobrium (as you call it) on judgment day is NOT reserved for feminists. It is reserved for rapists, as well as those who falsely accuse.
Amazing that you of all people believe you can judge stupidity in others.
Anonymous said...
"Amazing that you of all people believe you can judge stupidity in others".
Dec 16, 2009 10:11:00 AM
Amazing that after all the horrible things feminists have both, said and allowed to be said about men, they still think they have the right to judge men.
"All men are rapists and that's all they are" -- Marilyn French, Authoress; (later, advisoress to Al Gore's Presidential Campaign.)
Would it be fair for a man to say " All women are victims and that's all they are"?
Speaking of stupidity, did anybody catch this absurd comment:
"Social science has been completely debunked when it comes to the men-women. As Warren Farrel said in his strongly positive review of 'The Woman Racket', "[This book proves that] the social scientists have gotten it wrong, and the feminists have gotten it backwards."
Yep, that's proof LOL
I was going to quote each of your points and rebut them just now, but I see that you can't read and so it would be a fu*** waste of my time. And besides, you're stupid to boot - too stupid to be in college, so how do you know about all these frat. 'rape cultures"?
Or was it some other spammer in that case...
Now that I see your second post above, I will kindly point out to your dunce-ed-ness that that the proof was in the book itself -I was merely quoting the Farrell review for the guys on this board, as they know who he is.
Man, you're hopeless.
it is well known that some dating sites turn blind eye to bogus profile in their books
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