Tuesday, November 10, 2009

At what point are the victims of FRA justified in taking the law in their own hands?

The laws in the U.S., the UK, New Zealand, and pretty much everywhere else, do not adequately protect men and boys falsely accused of rape. Of this I have no doubt. While we are trying to change the laws to correct injustice, see, e.g., here, the process is an uphill battle, and it is legitimate to ask, at what point are men and boys justified in taking the law into their own hands to correct injustice -- to do what the laws won't? At what point must the technical letter of the law give way to a man's greater need to protect his liberty or his reputation?

For example, is a man justified in breaking the law that exists in various states by secretly videotaping a sexual encounter in order to have proof of consent in case he is arrested on a false rape charge?

Is a man justified in lying on an employment or other application, made under penalty of perjury, to cover up a false rape charge if he has reason to believe it will hurt him?

If a man is falsely accused of rape by his ex-girlfriend, is he justified in going into her email account without permission, or even gaining entry to her apartment when he knows she won't be there, to retrieve crucial evidence that would exonerate him?

Or how about this item in the news this week: if a college newspaper printed a "news" item asserting that a frat house was the scene of a rape that did not occur, would the frat members be justified in grabbing up all of the student newspapers (which are presumably free) so that the lie would not be spread? Is their collective reputation more valuable than the student newspapers' need to circulate the lie? See this item, where Phi Kappa Psi fraternity at the University of Minnesota apparently was involved in the theft of more than 10,000 newspapers last month, costing Arizona Student Media an estimated $8,500 in advertising revenue, printing costs and salaries. A student explained that the theft "was an effort to contain the spread of what Phi Kappa Psi members believe to be a false accusation of rape or attempted rape on Phi Kappa Psi property.” You see, a "Police Beat item in the stolen issue contained a police report in which a woman said she thought she may have been drugged at a Phi Kappa Psi party."

I don't condone this particular misconduct. I don't even need to reach the issue about the morality of snatching up free newspapers because it suffices to say that the young mens' plan was destined to backfire from the outset (and it did). The ensuing publicity probably gave the "news" story about the alleged rape more publicity than it otherwise would have received.

But the larger question -- when should men take the law into their own hands to protect themselves, and to what degree? -- is one that arises here from time to time, and its one that's worth pondering.

One postscript: I have heard a couple of fringe men's rights advocates say -- most likely out of extreme frustration with the inadequacy of our laws -- that if a man is falsely accused of rape, he should be allowed one free rape of his accuser. That sort of barbarism is not what I am talking about when I ponder when men might be justified in taking the law into their own hands. But if you think it is awful that a couple of men's rights advocates have made that suggestion out of extreme frustration, please consider that I have heard many feminists note with glee the fact that men and boys convicted of rape likely will be raped themselves in prison. To them, that is not barbaric, it is perfectly justified.

85 comments:

Archivist said...

I want our readers to know that we've adopted the FRA shorthand for false rape accusation or accuser, per some of our commentators' use of that term. Another example of how important the comments are to blogs like this.

SgtMom said...

Some men falsely accused of rape would NEVER DREAM of harming anyone - much less participate in a 'free rape'.

That suggestion paints men, yes, as willing rapists. Only a true rapist would find that acceptable.

That's like telling all the innocent people wrongly convicted of sexually abusing children they have "one freebie". Only a TRUE pervert would do something like that.

I've spent many nights plotting the assassination, broken knee caps, public exposure and all out bitch fight with my son's accuser.

In exchange of $500.00 some 'advocate' who looked over my son's case offered to find out why the Judge "had such a hard on" for my son via his golf buddy.

Another private investigator offered to wire tap their phone - claimed HE could do it legally(a tempting offer I still toy around with).

My son is on a public registry and I live everyday in fear someone will "take the law into their own hands" and murder my son (it happens),vandalize my home, set our house on fire, a news crew showing up at the front door to expose him, his father or brother mistaken for him and harmed.

ALL these "taking the law into our own hands" happen frequently - the public is encouraged with a public registry, even Iphone locator applications, and minimal punishment, if any, for those who do.

I live with the fear of vengeance every day as a completely innocent falsely accused person.

When you step into that realm, YOU become evil.

How many innocent men ended up swinging from a tree when society took the law into it's own hands? How many innocent people have been the victim of "justifiable homicide"?

Hundreds of millions of dollars were just approved to promote and further extend the sex offender registry - even though it has been proven worthless in preventing child abuse it is INVALUABLE in promoting politicians.

Organize and vote, guys.

That's how "they" did it.

Make it worthwhile to have your voices heard.

Do it before it's too late.

Archivist said...

"That suggestion paints men, yes, as willing rapists."

You've misread the post. No one here condones a free rape. We called it barbaric. We did make the point, however, that we hear far more feminists advocate men being raped than we hear about this free rape nonsense. So does that paint women as even MORE willing rapists than men?

Back on point: the ideal way is to vote and change the law. But when YOU are falsely accused of rape, what should YOU do to protect YOURSELF? Go lobby Nancy Pelosi's office? If you are unlucky enough to live in district that always votes DEM, you basically have no voice.

Anonymous said...

Sgt. Mom has got to go. Nobody is advocating murdering anyone, or raping anyone. The article talks about ways men can protect themsevles in a defensive mode against false accusers. I don't even read the article as advocating those things, but it's just asking aloud, would any of those things be justified?

Archivist said...

Anon at 9:39: well put. Are men justified in taking defensive measures to clear their names or to insure the false claim doesn't destroy them. Make it clear: I do not advocate that men do any such thing, but when they do such things, I don't know if I would impose much of a punishment.

Anonymous said...

The videotaping = yes.

Going into her email account if I still had her password = yes.

Breaking into her apartment = no. Too dangerous.

Anonymous said...

Oh, and stealing newspapers? Their free, aren't they? But my guess is that the frat had too many guys involved in the effort so there was bound to be a leak.

Anonymous said...

Videotaping: yes, but only for FRA purposes.

Cameras everywhere are OK with me.

slwerner said...

Archivist - "we hear far more feminists advocate men being raped than we hear about this free rape nonsense. So does that paint women as even MORE willing rapists than men?"

This is actually an important point, which I would be remiss to not comment on.

Personally, I've heard on numerous occasions, a woman, incensed over a crime committed by a man (and, often even not even rape), declare that he should go to prison and get “raped in the *ss” - repeatedly - for what he has (supposedly) done. I've yet to hear another woman “call” a woman on such a statement advocating rape.

Yet, men regard rape as horrible and barbaric crime. And, we are told that women feel the same way. Thus, their seeming advocacy of male-on-male prison rape could (and should) be seen as a sign of their relative barbarity towards others. [As an aside, I've even heard women remark that they wished for another women, their rivals, to be violently raped. WTF!?!?]

Again, I would point out that, the more we take a closer look at the evidence, the more we must conclude that women are not the kinder, more gentile, more caring gender – as we have always been told.

Anonymous said...

"The laws in the U.S., the UK, New Zealand, and pretty much everywhere else, do not adequately protect men and boys falsely accused of rape". or false accusations of other violent crimes.

"At what point are the victims of FRA justified in taking the law in their own hands?"

I do believe the ninth amendment should be considered.

What did people do before there were police? I personally have never vested any of my power or authority as a citizen in them, seeing as they have NEVER done anything for me. Being a male tax payer, it is as if I am paying them to ignore me/attack me at will. I do NOT pay them, or any other public servant/official to discriminate against me simply because they drank the feminist kool aid or, subscribed to feminist biases.

Anonymous said...

If feminists considered themselves to have the right(s) to condemn us, do we not have the EQUAL RIGHT(S) to do the same? We do but, at least we men are/have been showing more maturity/advancement and restraint. An important question; how much crap/suffering/being ignored is anyone expected/supposed to edure/suffer before they snap/retalliate?

Anonymous said...

Justice and karma are two extremely angry mothers/fathers who have LOTS of children.

Anonymous said...

AMEN!

Anonymous said...

False accusers shall reap what they have sown

Archivist said...

Let's turn the tables on this: pretend a woman was secretly videotaping a sex encounter and captured herself being raped on tape. Would anyone condemn her for illegally recording the act if it was sufficient to put a rapist away?

They'd have a parade for her. She'd be a feminist hero.

slwerner said...

"For example, is a man justified in breaking the law that exists in various states by secretly videotaping a sexual encounter in order to have proof of consent in case he is arrested on a false rape charge?"

Or, even an audio recording.

Just ask Jasmin Osmanovic. Oh, he's the mechanic lover of that Florida woman who arranged with him to pretend that she'd been adducted so as to get her hands on the family savings from her husband.

After their plans were foiled, she started claiming that Osmanovic had raped her.

But, Osmanovic had made a recording of both their love-making, and their scam-planning. He got clear evidence of her enthusiastic participation in the sex; and, as a bonus, he also got her part of the planning to steal her own families savings.

Apparently, at one point, she even suggested that her lover could "blow his head off" (speaking of what to do about her husband being in the way of their plans to be together.

Now, Osmanovic is certainly not a decent man - he is, in fact a criminal and a lothario. But, when the plans went south, and his lover turned on him, he at least had the evidence to take her down with him, and keep himself out of even bigger trouble fro rape and kidnap [without the audio recording, she might well have walked away unpunished, while he faced a life-sentence].

I'm still at a loss to explain her husband standing by her. Would any of you do the same if you were in his shoes? (sorry, I have to ask)

Anonymous said...

I would not.

Jared said...

Seriously people, when a woman mouths of about "I hope he gets raped in prison" in real life, call her on her bullshit! 9/10 she folds like a house of cards, 1/10 she spouts some feminist drivel that you are WELL equipped to rebut.
You've gained a lot of knowledge hanging out places like this. You've read, you've learned. Put it to some god damned use. If you have men watching you ask them how they'd feel if it was them, if it's women ask them how they'd feel if it was their brothers, husbands or sons. Explain how very easily it could be. These are arguments you can win if you can put aside your fear (justified fear) and fight!

Anonymous said...

At what point do you think victims of rape should take the law into their own hands? I'm thinking that when a woman is overwhelmingly shamed and guilt ridden into silence, her attacker will never understand her pain until he experiences the same violence. Karma.
Does anyone disagree that a man deserves vigilante justice in such a situation.

Nancy said...

I would like to agree with SgtMom I also am a mother with a son that is falsely accused of rape.

sgtmom said...

Welcome, Nancy. I often wonder where all the mothers, wives, sisters and loved of falsely accused are. I'm glad you are here.

The first I heard jokes about prison rape came from MALE comedians.

Feminists picked up on it later on, but it started with MEN.

I have heard very young kids joking about 'bubba's bitch' - and they KNOW what it means!

This popular national giggle fodder seems to have lost popularity since the world was exposed to photos of American servicemen and women staging mock prison rape photos at Abu Ghraib.

American's perverse fascination with prisons and prison rape was swept under the rug pretty quickly.

Archivist said...

sgtmom, I know that some of our readers here are into this "women are bad" thing, but that's not the position of our blog. And we all know that a lot of radical feminsts hate men, but the vast majority of women do not. Men are as much of the problem, if not more so, than women in terms of enabling false rape claims. Chivalrous men are feminism's useful idiots. Feminists, which includes some men, control the public discourse on rape, and they have done essentially nothing about prison rape. Since it's not an issue that primarily affects women or gays or transpersons, they couldn't care less about it.

Anonymous said...

I was with you all the way until you said, "Chivalrous men are feminism's useful idiots."

How necessary was that?

And you are right, prison rape is not a high priority on the feminist agenda, nor is there any reason it "should" be a high priority.

Archivist said...

I was with you all the way until you said, "Chivalrous men are feminism's useful idiots."

How necessary was that?

How necessary is anything we say here? Chivalrous men have done more to hurt the falsely accused than the dreaded feminists. It was chivalrous men who lynched innocent black men when their women falsely cried rape.

So, yeah, on second thought, the comment about "useful idiots" is very appropriate. I hope it doesn't hit too close to home.

SgtMom said...

I was thinking that when someone posted about how horribly men accused of rape are treated in jail...

You'd think that would be the LEAST thing men in jail would give another a bad time about, knowing there is a possibility the accusation could be false.

Same thing goes for innocent men released from prison after decades...where's the concern? Where's the public out cry?

Norm said...

"Men are as much of the problem, if not more so, than women in terms of enabling false rape claims."

yeah, but they don't make them as ofthen. Who came first - Mangum or Nifong?

Archivist said...

"yeah, but they don't make them as ofthen. Who came first - Mangum or Nifong?"

What are you talking about? Nifong was a public servant. If our public servants would do their jobs, the liars would slink back to their cats.

Anonymous said...

"On 11/11, a 19-year-old woman reported that she was forcibly raped at a University of Missouri fraternity house early Saturday.

The woman told police the incident occurred at about 2 a.m. at the Delta Tau Delta house, 506 Rollins St. Police spokeswoman Jessie Haden said the victim knew the suspect, but she declined to disclose additional details."

What did she expect to happen at a frat house at 2:00 in the morning?

SgtMom said...

Anonymous said...

"On 11/11, a 19-year-old woman reported that she was forcibly raped at a University of Missouri fraternity house early Saturday.


What did she expect to happen at a frat house at 2:00 in the morning?

Nov 13, 2009 9:58:00 PM
...................................



I don't know anyone who "expects" to be raped.

Maybe she thought he was a nice person or someone she could trust. Maybe she thought he liked her.

Maybe she didn't "expect" him to be a rapist.

Does anyone walk up to a person in a car wreck and say "What did you expect?" After all, car accidents are highly likely, yet no one ever seems to "expect" them.

Very few men would ever rape a woman under any circumstance - even if it's a frat house at 2:00 a.m.

Very few men "expect" to be falsely accused under any circumstance -- even if it's a frat house at 2:00 a.m....

Anonymous said...

I bet your butt is sore from saddling the fence.

SgtMom said...

I'm not concerned about YOUR butt, Anonymous - don't worry about mine.

What exactly is "the fence" you refer to?

The fence that says women must 'expect' to be raped in certain circumstances?

Or the fence that says men must 'expect' to be falsely accused in certain circumstances?

The fence that says only men are victims of FRA?

Or the fence that says men, women, and even children are being falsely accused with impunity in this country?

The fence that says only men/boys FRAs matter?

Or the fence that says injustice is injustice no matter what the gender?

Anonymous said...

For a change, try making a conviction instead of pandering to the masses. Decide what camp you want to sleep in. Your insipid remarks of being on the side of justice are unimpressive, as everyone here is on the side of justice.

SgtMom said...

Anonymous said...

For a change, try making a conviction instead of pandering to the masses. Decide what camp you want to sleep in. Your insipid remarks of being on the side of justice are unimpressive, as everyone here is on the side of justice.

Nov 14, 2009 5:02:00 PM

..................................

Anyone who makes the statement:


"What did she expect to happen at a frat house at 2:00 in the morning?"

is most certainly NOT "on the side of justice".

My reply was not 'pandering' - it was a polite and patient attempt to put it in terms you could understand.

"What did she expect", indeed!


It wasn't that long ago a black man could get lynched for whistling at or speaking too 'familiar' with a white woman.

"What did he expect"? was the prevailing attitude of the time.


Let's reverse the situation -
picture yourself arrested late at night over an unpaid traffic ticket - because a clerk typo'd the wrong number on the ticket you already paid. (It happens).


"What did he EXPECT to happen at a jail house at 2:00 in the morning?"


Certainly you wouldn't "expect" to be raped like a girl in a frat house over an unpaid traffic ticket, but it happens.


Does that clarify what "side of the fence" I'm on for you?

Anonymous said...

First, he should have saved the receipt.

Second, you don't go to jail for an unpaid traffic violation unless you are suspected of commiting a felonous act, and the traffic violation is the only thing they have on you.

I stick by my "What did she expect to happen at a frat house at 2:00 in the morning?"

The statement reflects reality -- not justice. Any moron knows it's wrong to rape.

SgtMom said...

Anonymous said...

First, he should have saved the receipt.

Second, you don't go to jail for an unpaid traffic violation unless you are suspected of commiting a felonous act, and the traffic violation is the only thing they have on you.

I stick by my "What did she expect to happen at a frat house at 2:00 in the morning?"

The statement reflects reality -- not justice. Any moron knows it's wrong to rape.

Nov 15, 2009 12:18:00 PM
...................................

Your statement paints 'frat' guys as rapists. Women are in frat houses at 2:00 a.m. without getting raped all the time.

My son was arrested twice last year for unpaid traffic fines because of the clerk's typo's. Yes he saved the receipt. He wouldn't lodge a complaint against the clerk - "She's hot. I don't want to get her in trouble."

Anonymous said...

There ya go again. Nobody said ALL frat guys are rapists any more than any other fraternal group. Shit happens everywhere.

Your son sounds like an idiot. The cops want to nab him. WHY?

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人妻だけどセフレ募集しちゃいます!こんな女嫌かなぁ?新しい刺激欲しいし旦那以外の男性としてみたいな。エッチのテクはそれなりに自信あるよ、フェラとか上手いってよく褒められます。年上は何歳まででもOKだけど年下は18歳までが限界かな、楽しみたい人いたら気軽によろしくね♪ enjoy-smile.of.happiness@docomo.ne.jp

神待ち said...

家出中の少女たちの書込が神待ち掲示板に増えています。ご飯を食べさせてあげたり、家に招いて泊まらせてあげるだけで、彼女たちはあなたに精一杯のお礼をしてくれるはずです

出会い said...

セフレ専門出会い喫茶エンジョイラブは店舗型出会い喫茶 ENJOYグループのネット1号店としてオープンしました♪セフレ探しを目的とした出会いの専門店です。Hに満足していない女性達が多数登録。今すぐ即アポOK表示のHな女の子を新着順で紹介中です

熟女 said...

熟女だって性欲がある、貴方がもし人妻とSEXしてお金を稼ぎたいのなら、一度当サイトをご利用ください。当サイトには全国各地からお金持ちのセレブたちが集まっています。女性から男性への報酬は、 最低15万円からと決めております。興味のある方は一度当サイト案内をご覧ください

mコミュ said...

mコミュで理想の恋人を見つけよう!某女性誌に紹介され、女の子の登録者が急増中です。新しい出会いの場としてあまり知られていない今ならメールの返信がすぐに返ってくるかも!?無料登録から始めてみよう

天然娘 said...

さびしがりやの素人女性や天然娘にメールやチャットで会話してあげるだけで儲かる新感覚のアルバイト「素人ホスト」!未経験者の方でも簡単、手軽に出来るお仕事です。詳細は当サイトでご確認ください

真剣に向き合ってはくれませんか? said...

初めての書き込みでちょっぴり緊張してます、男の人と出会うきっかけがなくて!こう言う場をかりてみるのもひとつのきっかけですよね。周りの友達は彼氏とラブラブの毎日、あたしもラブラブな毎日を過ごしたい、21歳の恥ずかしがり屋なんで、年上で引っ張ってくれる人がいいです。メールしてくれたら返事は確実だよ♪ワクワクしながらメール待ってます love.love.happy-@docomo.ne.jp

スタービーチ said...

復活、スタービーチ!日本最大のであい系がついに復活、進化を遂げた新生スタビをやってみませんか?理想のパートナー探しの手助け、合コンパーティー等も随時開催しています。楽しかった頃のスタビを体験しよう

神待ち said...

家出・神待ちサイト神風は家出少女が集まる人気サイトをクチコミから集めた家出サイト専用のリンク集です。風のように現れる神となってあなたも家出少女を救ってあげて下さい

右脳左脳チェッカー said...

ランク王国でもご紹介された右脳左脳チェッカー、天才肌を見分ける楽しい盛り上がりツールとして今、支持をうけております。みんなでやれば盛り上がる事は間違いなし診断結果でも全国ランキングなどにランクインされて面白さ倍増!話のネタに一度はどうぞ

セレブ said...

ゴージャスなリッチセレブリティ達のアダルトコミュニティーサイト!お金と時間に優雅なセレブ女性達はアダルトコミュで男性との秘密交際を楽しんでいるのです

スタービーチ said...

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高級セレブ said...

ゴージャスなリッチセレブリティ達のアダルトコミュニティーサイト!お金と時間に優雅な高級セレブ女性達はアダルトコミュで男性との秘密交際を楽しんでいるのです

メル友 said...

変な性癖があるのはどう思いますか?私、獣姦とか好きなんです…いきなりこんな話驚きますよね…引きましたか?Σ(゜□゜(゜□゜*)野外とかにも興味があります!変態チックなのもたまにはいいですよ\(^-^ )こんな私にメールしてくれるとうれしいです。メールから色んな話しましょ(^_^)年上の人がいいです、私は27歳ですよ!それでは、メール待ってますね sasisuseso309@docomo.ne.jp

ツイッター said...

ツイッターで始まるであいの掲示板は新感覚のコミュニティ☆男女とも無料の年齢認証登録だけで即参加!!掲示板に参加後はプロフ作成やお友達検索、メッセージの交換等など多彩なコンテンツで貴方のであいをしっかりサポート

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恋愛のこと教えてねヽ(^◇^*)/ said...

仕事や趣味に夢中になってたらいつの間にか独りきりになってた…彼氏も長いこといなくて恋愛から離れてました( ´_ゝ`)そろそろ恋愛にも夢中になりたいけど男の子とどうせっしたらいいか教えて下さい(-^▽^-) 動物好きだから、年上で動物好きな人仲良くしてね(。・w・。 ) ペット連れて散歩なんていいよね!!まずはのんびりメールからお願いします sweet-rose.perfume@docomo.ne.jp

モバゲー said...

今やモバゲーは押しも押されもせぬ人気SNS!当然であいを求めてる人も多い!そこで男女が出逢えるコミュニティーが誕生!ここなら友達、恋人が簡単にできちゃいますよ

援助スポット said...

最低10万円から交際がスタートする援助スポット。不満を持つ熟女達が若い男性を求めて集まっております。熟女サークル逆¥交際であなたもリッチな生活を送ってみませんか

スタビ said...

満を持してのスタビ復活劇!!ここから刻まれる、新たな一コマ。スタービーチがあなたの歴史を生み出します

スタービーチ said...

一時代を築いたスタービーチは閉鎖になってしまいましたが、もう一度楽しい思いをしたい、もう一度であいたいと思う有志により再度復活しました。本家以上に簡単に会えて楽しい思いを約束します

手料理 said...

つい最近独り暮らし始めましたヾ(〃^∇^)ノお家で料理作っても食べてくれる人がいない(´−`)彼氏いないからあたしと過ごしてくれる人いませんか?手料理ごちそうするよぉ!よかったらメールして下さい(o~ー~)年下の人はゴメンネ…(*_ _)人メール待ってます♪september9-love9@docomo.ne.jp

mコミュ said...

PC対応!掲示板コミュニティサイトmコミュでであいを満喫しませんか?素敵なであいをあなたにお届けいたします

スタービーチ said...

【緊急】突如として消えたスタービーチが復活!長い年月をかけて不死鳥の如く蘇ったスタビをお楽しみください【緊急】

友達 said...

彼女募集中の人やフリーの人は絶対絡んでください☆ゆきとメールしよ♪ chu-chu-chulip@docomo.ne.jp

mixi said...

mixiをも凌駕する出会い率!!出会いをするならここしかない♪mixiより出会えてしまうこのサイト。一度ハマれば辞めれません。スタービーチで素敵な出会いをしちゃいましょう