Last night, fraternity Sigma Alpha Mu hosted Anthropology professor Peggy Sanday in a discussion about the prevalence of rape in the United States and specifically on college campuses.
Sanday spoke to a group of SAM brothers about her book, Fraternity Gang Rape: Sex, Brotherhood, and Privilege on Campus. She described how her work on rape began in 1983, when one of her students reported being raped by six fraternity brothers on Penn’s campus.
According to Sanday, the general attitude towards rape at the time was that if the victim was incapacitated at a party, she “deserved what happened to her.” Sanday said this stereotype and the reactions of the University community to that incident spawned her search for justice for rape victims.
Her book focuses on the social distinctions between “rape-free” and “rape-prone” societies. Sanday’s definition of a “rape-prone” society is one in which there is male social and sexual dominance and a premium placed on male bonding — for example, in college fraternities. Sanday emphasized that she considers the United States among these “rape-prone” societies.
Read the rest here: http://thedp.com/article/peggy-sanday-event-addresses-rape-culture
Let us stop there and come up for air.
Did you catch the last part -- from a professor, no less? A society that, among other things, places a premium on male bonding, as college fraternities do, is prone to rape. Am I dreaming this? And I am presuming there were young men sitting there listening while this utter bullshit was served up, without protest?
First, a few words about the alleged male social and sexual dominance. How does she define "dominance"? Does "dominance" mean the gender that puts the needs of the members of the other gender above its own in return for sexual favors? If so, then I suppose males are "dominant" in this culture. Does she mean physically dominant? Or, dominant in terms of being risk takers? In terms of being the ones who drive the vast majority of innovation, invention, ingenuity? Guilty as charged. You see, professor, men woke up one day, called a meeting at the urinals, and decided we were going to be the dominant sex. Right. Biology plays no part in any of this so-called "dominance," does it? And if it does, I suppose we should deny what comes natural to us, right, professor?
But let's get back to this male bonding. In saner times, male bonding was viewed as a positive thing, positive because of the male tendency for stoicism and to not share their emotions and all that. Just as the female desire to get drunk and sleep around was viewed as a negative. The "rules" have changed, and now young women are encouraged to act like sluts and idiots and young men are shamed not just for their physical attraction to women but . . . for male bonding?
I suppose when you view the male gender as oppressors, it's best to divide men from one another and make sure they don't bond.
Just tell me, am I dreaming this?
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99 comments:
Peggy Sanday also authored a book about the Minangkabau people on Sumatra. This is a matrilinear society in which women traditionally enjoy a higher social standing than in the more male-dominated societies elsewhere in Asia, particularly in East-Asia and and West- and South-Asia.
She observed that women there weren't afraid of men there. And that relations between men and women are harmonious overall.
I've lived there too for half a year, and I have some command of both the national and local language.
I had the same impression but I also feel that that society is blessed because women there are not taught to hate and fear men as is the case everywhere in the western world.
For instance there, you can talk to women on the streets at all times of the day and night without freaking them out you might be out to rape or harass them. Also, women seem to enjoy the company of men and aren't shy.
I am angered that this woman learnt so much about the Minangkabau people yet fails to observe that one of its strong points is that people there aren't exposed to this kind of hate propaganda she authors.
I'm also at a total loss about how one can claim America, or Western countries are any more male dominated than the Minangkabau, in the sense that most prominent Minangkabau are men.
Many Minangkabau men are high achievers in politics, arts and education.
Mohamad Hatta, first vice president of Indonesia was from West-Sumatra. So was the author of the national anthem of Singapore.
Men there also bond and their mothers don't fear they might become rapists. How silly.
I'm really sad such books are written and such fear is being installed in the minds of young women.
These are rocks on the roads towards a society where men and women feel mutual respect for each others and live in harmonious, healthy relationships.
On this website here http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~psanday/rapea.html I've learnt she found that rape was relatively rare in West-Sumatra. Now, I'm a frequent visitor to this blog and I have the strong impression that the rareity of reported rape cases can be partly attributed to the lack of a rape hysteria and misogony.
Johannes, thanks for your comment. I know nothing about this professor aside from the article and what you've related, but assuming the accuracy of both I would say this: it never ceases to amaze me how many angry women gravitate to teaching positions in our institutions of higher learning. The professor seems to be among them. They are women who seem to hate maleness with every fiber of their being.
The points she makes in the article are absurd on their face and would not be treated seriously anywhere outside the constipated halls of a social studies department (and in the features columns of similar misandrists -- if they can't get a job teaching in a college, they end up being the token feminist banshee on a major daily). Persons like this assume that rape is rampant because that is part of their metanarrative. Never mind the facts. When I demonstrate to them, for example, that the feminist stats for rape and for underreporting of rape are wildly inconsistent, never do they challenge me. Never. They care not about facts; they are promoting a political ideology, and they know that I stand in the way of that.
In any event, we now know that male bonding is a point on their rape continuum, along with porn (even though porn use is tied to decreases in rape), looks, laughing at raunchy jokes, mildly cajoling your girlfriend for sex, and any number of other things. It would be laughable if they weren't given impressive sounding titles. They should just get it over with and physically castrate the entire male gender. Nothing will make them happy until they do that.
My guess is that she has no idea how far out her views are. I suspect she'd look at this post and dismiss it as just some angry MRA nonsense. In fact, my guess is that among intelligent persons who don't take Womyn's Studies classes, her view that male bonding is indicative of a rape culture would be greeted with howls of derision and scorn. It is nonsense, through and through.
she attacks "male bonding"..because that is the real goal of "breaking the patriarchy"
Keep American working class males divided and conquered.
My guess is this professor did not grow up in a "broken patriarchy". People that get an education, Rarely come from the "broken Patriarchal" segments of society. But yet she is Arrogant enough to attack the patriarchy.
http://www.upenn.edu/pennnews/features/1996/031996/sanday.gif
Pic of her.
No surprise, all these feminist bitches are too butt ugly to attract a man.
That's where their hate comes from.
AfOR
The new femi-nazi propaganda machine.."divide and conquer".
I'm heading about to leave soon so I'll make this quick. I'll add more when I get back.
Honestly, I think you kind of got skewed and twisted her words a little.
Sanday’s definition of a “rape-prone” society is one in which there is male social and sexual dominance and a premium placed on male bonding
She never attacked male bonding ITSELF but rather what is placed ON male bonding. It doesn't apply to all instances of male bonding but perhaps it applies to some that fit the criteria.
And of course your examples of male dominance isn't what she's talking about. It applies to those men who have twisted ideas of masculinity that manifests itself through rape and their beliefs surrounding the issue of rape.
Femi-nazi
go break yer own patriarchy you little pig!!
Since the 1950's mens social clubs such as the Elks clubs, moose clubs, bowling leagues ect..have been broken with the chant "break the patriarchy".
Any social scientist who is worth their degree will tell you if you take away mens social networks..you invariably create all forms of anti-social behavoirs.
Anti-social behaviors manifest into all type of criminal behaviors and deviance.
So one of the drawbacks of "divide and conquer"...is chaos!!
Archivist, fraternity bonding, in your opinion, is benign. That may be the case in some frats, but in others, it's a dangerous subculture. Male-bonding isn't a bad thing in itself. Sleazy are the mehods used to attain that bonding.
Sanday left out “Voyeurism”. When guys know they’re being watched, their exploitation of a woman becomes increasingly worse. If at all possible, photos are taken without a girl's knowledge to share at the next meeting.
And [Some] guys keep a tally on their conquests. It’s called the notch system. Then, at frat meetings, a lot of time is devoted to “who did what to which girl(s)”. The winner gets another notch up the ladder.
This type behavior completely debases women as human beings, and is predicated on the slewed belief (learned in the fraternity) that women are lesser human beings. The mentality goes something like this: Although women are necessary in the social scene, they are nothing more than stepping stones to bolster self-esteem for the overall morale of the brotherhood. Use and abuse them, but don’t take them too seriously.
So, Voyeurism is one of several vehicles frat boys use to solidify the male-bonding that creates the rape prone subculture Sanday discusses.
"sKewed"
Atom, get out of here you little pig!!
The broken patriarchal underclass fix the cars of the gender feminist pigs.
Go break yer own patriarchy you little pig!!
What percentage of the gender feminist community (male and female)..change their own tire when they get a flat??
Who's really being "oppressed" here, when the gender feminist community get those from the "broken patriarchy" to change their tire for them?
Atom, I can twist any positive into a negative, too. She was speaking generically, about men and bonding. She wasn't talking about male sociopaths. To her, and apparentlty to you, men are just evil.
Over several decades there have been constant corrosive attacks by feminism on all male institutions.
They do not always take the same form. They often constitute extraordinary hypocrisies.
At the other end of the same politics...
Western Australia about two years ago. A private outfit - the Reef Club, one of those older style deep chairs plus G&T "gentleman's clubs" - came under attack for not permitting female members. Apparently they were denying women the opportunity for networking and mentoring. The instigator was the president of WA Womens' Lawyers Association which, in it's charter, devoted itself to networking and mentoring. For women only.
I know gymnasiums have been mentioned for their sexism occasionally. In my town three of four gyms are for women only. Consider that each of them has permission from the government to break the laws of the land - by way of what is euphamistically termed an "exemption" - so they may cater to a demographic that believes men are pigs.
No male only environments are permitted. Sanday is the other end of that same spectrum, dare I say it, the shallow end.
Consider further that the appellation "No Blacks" or "No Jews" or, even, "No Women" is considered seriously offensive while it is quite acceptable to put the word "No" above the word "Men".
We'll have ours. AND yours too.
What they fail to understand is that a female entering a male environment changes dynamics just as a male entering a female group does.
Whether deliberate or not the outcome is to deny men the opportunity for intellectual and emotional intimacy with other men. It permits women to monopolise as the only permissable source of intimacy. Note how they seek to control every possible source of intimacy available to men - sex, reproduction, parenthood, family. It divides men and robs men of one of the truly civilising forces available to our species. The truly great things men do are frequently the things they do together.
The authors of these attacks are readily definable as women who have absolutely no concept of how men relate to one one another. Indeed they would likely decry any suggestion of applying anything resembling empathy for any male.
For me Peggy Sanday's words are an abomination up there with Prof Freda Briggs OA asserting that ALL teenage boys should be treated as though they are paedophiles.
Shallow excuses for human beings and snake oil merchants as academics.
Gwallan,imo, you missed the point in Sanday's article.
When groups of sorority women bond, their primary goal is not to coerce men sexually.
Whereas, in [some] fraternity subcultures, the result of male-bonding can result in rape, because the ultimate goal is to bed a woman at any cost. Their manhood depends on it. Emphasizing a subculture.
Renee said...
And of course your examples of male dominance isn't what she's talking about. It applies to those men who have twisted ideas of masculinity that manifests itself through rape and their beliefs surrounding the issue of rape.
I seem to recall citing research on the proportion of convicted rapists who have previously been molested by women. Whilst you found it convenient to ignore this work at the time you should recall it was more than half. Significantly. I would put it to you that these individuals act from a perspective of disempowerment rather than anything you wish to ignorantly insert into their psyches.
Something you can never do is peer into the victim part of these individuals. It is something you dare not do. I can do this thing. I know how their growth was distorted. I know their despair. I know their frustration. I know how many of them are abused further if they so much as admit their experience. I know what brews their anger.
Atom said...
Gwallan,imo, you missed the point in Sanday's article.
When groups of sorority women bond, their primary goal is not to coerce men sexually.
Can we laugh now or should we be polite and do it after you've left - out of respect for your dainty sensibilities of course.
I hardly think you able to judge my position, my knowledge, my experience.
I am perfectly able to judge her assertions. She attempts to analysis male behaviour from a standpoint that disables her capacity to do it. You, likewise, have no capacity and your arrogance in assuming the right is extraordinary. NO equivalent analysis of women by men would ever be tolerated.
Atom, and mens groups do not come together for the sole purpose of manufacturing faulty and inflamatory misinformation..in order for the women to get super equal status from the law, super equal funding for all womens associations..and super equal opportunities for fat beurocratic pork jobs.
atom,
sanday missed the point too if she thinks that men bond to coerce women into sex. also coercing someone is not the same as rape. and i'm not even sure if that was her point. you're getting things mixed up.
either way the idea that america is a rape prone society because a premium is put on male bonding is bizarre.
your view on how bonding between males is achieved is so far of the mark, there's no point of getting into that.
i've bond quite a bit with other men in my life and it wasn't necessary to brag about sexual exploits of whatever nature.
male bonding is perfectly healthy and our societies couldn't exist without it.
maybe one should examine what societies are false-rape prone and which aren't.
maybe the absense of false rape reports about the minangkabau are due to the lack of femi-nazi bonding.
I would be willing to bet that the most substantive resistance to men/fathers equal rights..are the "hired hysteric guns"..who soak in a very large amount of the "American beaurocratic pork economy."
What Peggy really means is that a society in which men care about each other as much as they care about women is dangerous. Women might lose their special privileges, including their right to rape any man they please by means of the legal system.
Johannes also missed the point ... "male bonding is perfectly healthy and our societies couldn't exist without it."
I doubt you'd find an argument there. So do you want me to repeat my post on perverted subcultures that exisit in [some] fraternities?
The first post here (yours) states: "For instance there [Sumatra], you can talk to women on the streets at all times of the day and night without freaking them out you might be out to rape or harass them. Also, women seem to enjoy the company of men and aren't shy."
Well, obviously they do not fear strange men on the street. Now do you honestly believe it's because Sumatra lacks propaganda against men, or do you think it might be attributed to more than that?
12:24, keep on truckin'
Anon - ”In fact, my guess is that among intelligent persons who don't take Womyn's Studies classes, her view that male bonding is indicative of a rape culture would be greeted with howls of derision and scorn. It is nonsense, through and through.”
And yet in exactly echoes one of the statements of resident-troll, Atom, on an earlier thread. (frankly, I suspected she had gotten the idea from some dispensary of feminist agitprop – now we know which one).
Renee - ”She never attacked male bonding ITSELF but rather what is placed ON male bonding. It doesn't apply to all instances of male bonding but perhaps it applies to some that fit the criteria.
And of course your examples of male dominance isn't what she's talking about. It applies to those men who have twisted ideas of masculinity that manifests itself through rape and their beliefs surrounding the issue of rape.”
Renee,
As one of the women posters here who actually seems willing to listen to reason, consider this:
The idea that talk of rape (let alone, carrying it out) is NOTM a part of normal male-bonding – certainly none that I have ever been a part of. Having never been a part of the Greek System during my college years, I cannot speak to the potential depravities of a very small, select group of “fortunate sons” – those with a background of wealth and privilege, who may carry a sense of entitlement WRT women around them.
However, for the vast, vast majority of men, any guy who would even suggest the idea of raping women would be outright shunned (despite the depraved imaginations of radical feminists).
Frankly, most men would view a man who had to force women to have sex with him as a total “looser” – a man who could not “get” women via normal interaction with them.
Now, I know that some feminists claim that men sit around with their buddies bragging about conquests (even rapes), and thus encouraging other men towards rape.
But, the reality is, IT JUST DOESN’T HAPPEN!
As one who spends quite bit of time in men’s locker rooms, I seldom hear discussion regarding sexual conquests. About the most one will ever hear from another man is something along the lines of, “I did that chick”. A simple, perfunctory statement (one could view it as being about “conquest”) which virtually never involves any sort of detail. [unlike the discussion between women regarding their sexual conquests, which, as I understand, typically involve rather intimate and graphic detail].
And, I doubt my experience in this regard is any thin other than the norm.
I’d even go so far as to pose the question to the forum:
Have any of you guy’s ever heard some guy bragging about his sexual “conquests” with terms that were in any way suggestive of force and/or rape?
{I'm looking for honest answers here, I don't want anyone to simply "rubber-stamp" what I'm proffering]
Atom - "And [Some] guys keep a tally on their conquests. It’s called the notch system. Then, at frat meetings, a lot of time is devoted to “who did what to which girl(s)”. The winner gets another notch up the ladder."
I'm going to call BS on this one.
Just how many of these meetings have you attended?
As I recall, there was one single instance of such a "score-keeping" group of young men, whose antic were exposed (early 90's, IIRC) and went on to become fodder for but sensationalized TV-drama plots, and feminists dogma.
Where do you have any proof that such things are ongoing anywhere - other than the fevered imaginations of male-hating radical gender-feminists?
"Have any of you guy’s ever heard some guy bragging about his sexual “conquests” with terms that were in any way suggestive of force and/or rape?"
Perhaps some rapists talk that way; normal men do not.
Atom - "Whereas, in [some] fraternity subcultures, the result of male-bonding can result in rape, because the ultimate goal is to bed a woman at any cost. Their manhood depends on it. Emphasizing a subculture."
This sort of behavior is far, far more common to street gang initiations. Unlike men who would join fraternities, those seeking to join gangs have little to lose in participating in illegal activities.
Despite unsubstantiated stories from the (increasingly distant) past regarding gang-rape frat initiations, the vast majority of men joining a fraternity A) do not need to resort to any sort of force to gain sex from women (there are always plenty of women throwing themselves at such guys); and, B) understand that they would jeopardize their own futures by such acts.
That such behaviors are common is just feminist lore, with zero actual substantiation.
Atom - "When guys know they’re being watched, their exploitation of a woman becomes increasingly worse. If at all possible, photos are taken without a girl's knowledge to share at the next meeting."
Based on the actual content of video available via either DVD or internet, it seems much more obvious that it is women who play up their sluttines for the camera. With little effort, I could direct you to hundreds of sources of video showing women openly displaying their debauchery for the cameras, which they obviously know are there.
Regarding todays raunch culture, women both control it's prevalence as well as being among it's most enthusiastic participants.
It's of no doubt that there would be plenty of men willing to participate, but, without the willingness of the women, it wouldn't be happening.
Gwallan,
I seem to recall citing research on the proportion of convicted rapists who have previously been molested by women. Whilst you found it convenient to ignore this work at the time you should recall it was more than half. Significantly. I would put it to you that these individuals act from a perspective of disempowerment rather than anything you wish to ignorantly insert into their psyches.
Something you can never do is peer into the victim part of these individuals. It is something you dare not do. I can do this thing. I know how their growth was distorted. I know their despair. I know their frustration. I know how many of them are abused further if they so much as admit their experience. I know what brews their anger.
Ok, and your point? Should we just excuse convicted rapists or other criminals because of what happened to them in their past? I'm very sympathetic towards anyone who was traumatised in any way including those who were molested by men and women, but we can't ignore whatever crimes that they commit themselves. The cycle has to break somewhere.
It shouldn't have happened to them and those people shouldn't have gotten away with it if they did, but we can't also turn a blind eye to what they themselves may do to others, continuing the cycle.
Kindly furnish me with an example of even one time where male bonding led to rape. Just one. The Hofstra young men seemed to go in for male bonding - except they weren't raped. They were victims of a false rape claim. I don't want to hear about how rape is prevalant in a "culture" where there is male bonding. Tie the male bonding into the rape and show me a direct link.
Slwerner, I can't believe your naivity, "This sort of behavior [rape] is far, far more common to street gang initiations. Unlike men who would join fraternities, those seeking to join gangs have little to lose in participating in illegal activities."
EXACTLY~~~!!!
That is precisely why the whole notice of "respectable" frat guys participating in deviant sexual behavior is so DISARMING and unbelievable.
Here's the difference between a frat guy who rapes and a street thug who rapes: The frat guy is deemed a "gentleman", and the street thug is a "criminal".
Rape among the subcultures used to be a piece of cake because they were protected by both the fratenal organization and the college. Those days are gone thanks to women like Peggy Sanday!
Do I "always" have to emphasize that it's a Subculture, and NO, it is not Normal Behavior?
And, Gwallan, Reneee has an excellent point in that the chain of abuse must be broken at some point, otherwise the oppressed become the oppressors.
"notion of"
Atom - ”Slwerner, I can't believe your naivity”
What IS naïve is to believe everything one reads coming out of gender-feminist circles.
This idea that rape is (still) promoted by male bonding is one prime example of the feminist naïveté. Some women “reported” (was that, to authorities; or was is simply made claims of…?) that they were forced to undergo rapes (gang-rapes) as part of initiations a quarter of a century ago, and, from that, feminists spin a mighty yarn about the secretive goings on of the Fraternity system, and we’re supposed to buy it at face value as true, despite it’s many leaps in logic? Now, truly, do that would be naïve.
I cannot say with any certainty that it was never the case that gang-rape initiations did happen (indeed, it’s possible that in bye-gone era’s it would have been possible to get away with it).
But, I can tell you that there is little ambiguity regarding the reality that women seeking to join gangs are quite routinely gang-banged into the gang. They report that they were forced (as a condition of joining) to do so, feared for their safety if they had wanted to back-out, and that they had no choice regarding which men would have sex with them (nor how many). However, with few exceptions, they also report that they were quite willing to do so, didn’t mind having sex, and some even report that they enjoyed the sexual attentions of multiple partners.
Now, if it were true that some women were involved in frat gang-bangs as initiations, it remains difficult to determine as the women who do seemed to have complained about such occurrences seem not to have done so to police. Thus, it seems difficult to separate those who were, in fact, willing participants who latter did not want to be seem as sluts (not their fault if they say that they were forced, of course) from those who may have been actually forced into participation, and thus raped (maybe even rape-raped by Whoppi Goldberg standards).
And, supposing that these alleged gang-rapes did occur, how is it that we are supposed to believe that the things people could get away with in 1983* are still prevalent today.
* I was in college in 1983. Rape hysteria was well under way. Every year, we were forced to endure seminars about rape, date-rape, and how every man was a potential rapist. Like many of my contemporaries, I volunteered to be an on-call escort for women on and around the campus. We men were strongly encourage to do our part in preventing rapes. We we’re just doing so to “meet chicks” [most of those calling for escorts were the ones who were to unattractive to have boyfriends, and it often seemed that they were more interested in getting attention than of any real fear of being raped]. So, if there were these alleged rape cover-ups going on, it certainly would have been flying in the face of the massive anti-rape efforts that my school put on.
Slwerner,
Based on what you said, the problem seems to be, at least in part, stereotyping by the media or the fact that it often shows the worst of fraternity culture or male bonding.
Oh and it was for the post time-stamped Oct 13, 2009 12:51:00 PM
Renee - "the problem seems to be, at least in part, stereotyping by the media or the fact that it often shows the worst of fraternity culture or male bonding."
Precisely!
However, as in the article starting off this thread, we see the "worst-of-the-worst" being amplified (transmogrified) into part of some dominant "rape-prone" culture.
Even if such bad behaviors weren't limited to certain dark corners of the Fraternity system, those involved in those fraternities are but a fraction of a percent of the overall population.
I think the counter-point that needs to be made to those such as professor Peggy Sanday is that the behaviors of a very small minority DO NOT exert a controlling influence over society as a whole. To even imagine them doing so is nonsense.
Frankly, Rap/Hip-Hop music has a far greater influence on young people than do frats. And, there are plentiful examples of deeply misogynistic behaviors in that music.
Thus, it is more likely that the music industry does more to promote ideas of rape. yet, feminism is largely a movement of well-to-do white women, whose primary interests lie in gaining power rather than seeking equality or the protection of women.
Disparaging men, especially those (predominantly white) men who would be the most likely rivals of high-end job seeking privileged white females, is far more important to feminists that doing anything to reform predominantly non-white "institutions" that might actually encourage harm to women.
Thus, it is no wonder that they would seek to re-imagine the relatively few high-status (high-potential) members of fraternities into the monsters driving the "rape culture".
Slwerner, when Rape hysteria was well under way where you attended college in 1983, what do you suppose gave birth to all the hysteria and anit-rape programs? Now don't go blamin' the nazi-fems ... they weren't here yet.
The "coverup" for both acquaintance rape and gang rape occurred long before 1983, and only after women began coming forward was Rape recognized as a big problem. The methods used for male-bonding were hugely responsible.
Slwerner, had the term "gang rape" even been coined when you were in college? At one time, it was referred to as having "group sex" with a very willing enthusiastic nymph. My friends and I giggled at these tales and wondered if there were any "nymphs" among us. Well today we know these women were not nymphs, but the targets of gang rape. Their "silence" is why it took society so long to catch on!
And, no, I'm not saying that the problem prevails today as it once did. I believe there's been a dramatic decline. I think few frat guys nowadays are arrogant or stupid enough to risk the consequences.
Atom - "Slwerner, had the term "gang rape" even been coined when you were in college?"
Both the terms "gang-bang" and "gang-rape" were well-known by then.
And, I would add, I knew women in college who WERE willing participants in gang-bangs (one woman having sex with multiple men) and/or group sex (sex in groups of men and women - either single or multiple partners)
These sort of things were not only well known, but widely practiced. When I started college in '81, women were already very slutty and very raunchy in their behaviors. A significant number regularly used (heavily) alcohol and drugs. No one needed to "ply" them - they did that to themselves. And, many of them went to parties (frat or otherwise) looking to have sex. this was no secret. The sexualized behaviors of women were well known even then.
Badly as the women were behaving then, I hear they've only gotten worse since.
I take it that you are much older, and cannot relate to college behaviors in the modern era?
You might be quite surprised to find out just how many women graduate from college with the gang-bang square filled in on their sex-bingo cards.
As I've tried repeatedly to point out to you, we do not have a "rape culture", nor even a "rape-prone" culture; what we have in rampant female participation on a raunchy sex culture.
And, once again, sexual regrets ARE NOT RAPE, even when expressed to a male-hating radical gender-feminist professor who's looking to write a book about male-bonding behaviors supposedly prompting rape.
That's just it. The few bad apples reflect the whole fraternity, hence the so-called college rape prone culture Sanday lectures about.
Same can be said for false accusers, some who actually invent rapists who don't exist. They still represent women, reeking havoc for the majority of decent women who would never dream of falsely accusing anyone of rape.
". . . what do you suppose gave birth to all the hysteria and anit-rape programs?"
In 1983? An entire cottage industry was developing of paid sexual assault counselors. Their livelihood depends on fomenting rape hysteria. Have you ever heard one of them say, "rape is not as severe a problem as it once was" even though it's not?
(our posts crossed)
"As I've tried repeatedly to point out to you, we do not have a "rape culture", nor even a "rape-prone" culture; what we have in rampant female participation on a raunchy sex culture."
This behavior coming from women is unimaginable to me, but since I am SO out of the loop, I would have to concede that you know what you're talking about. (At least I'll try)
AfOR - ” No surprise, all these feminist bitches are too butt ugly to attract a man.”
Along that line of thought, plus a connection to false rape syndrome:
Can feminists set the terms of sexual liberation?
[http://ozconservative.blogspot.com/2009/10/can-feminists-set-terms-of-sexual.html - if embedded link doesn't work]
Atom - ” The few bad apples reflect the whole fraternity, hence the so-called college rape prone culture Sanday lectures about.”
Outside of feminist fantasy (aka reality), those few bad apple DO NOT control an entire culture.
Atom - ”Same can be said for false accusers, some who actually invent rapists who don't exist. They still represent women, reeking havoc for the majority of decent women who would never dream of falsely accusing anyone of rape.”
And yet, we (as men here) do not seek to demonize an entire gender – we seek to put an end to the bad behaviors of those who are committing them, and to alert and educate the public to the not-so-uncommon occurrence of false reports of rapes.
Given that there is far greater support/defense of those who commit the crime of falsely reporting a rape than those who would seek to cover-up for the sexual assaults in fraternities, it would make far more sense to proclaim that we have a “false rape reporting-prone” culture than it does to try to pretend that a few bad apples from a few bad frats create a “rape-prone” culture.
Archivist - "In 1983? An entire cottage industry was developing of paid sexual assault counselors. Their livelihood depends on fomenting rape hysteria."
Good point!
The annual seminars (aimed at men) at my school were done by paid consultants brought in from outside the University. It was a full-time business for them to give such seminars.
Atom - "since I am SO out of the loop"
Just how far outside are you?
Perhaps you'd provide some hint at your age so I'd have a better idea of what you can relate to?
How far out of the loop? Won't tell you exactly, but I do have grandchildren *choke*, and grew up with the Beatles.
You laud Archivist for making a good point with the "cottage industry", but I would ask you both ... what came first ... the chicken or the egg?
My mother is in her eighties, gang-banging and group sex and all that stuff was happening in the 1930's, and she says it wasn't new then either...
Guys, and this is for guys only.
I'll tell you a FACT, a fact you don't wanna hear, but a fact nonetheless.
"Men think of sex every six seconds", the idea being women don't, we chase, the pout.
The FACT is women are more up for sex, more in to sex, more experimental sex, more extreme sex, than men, by a long mile.
My credentials, I literally do not know how many women I have had sex with (so far) in my life.
I am not film star good looking, I am not a prince, I am not a millionaire, I am an ordinary bloke in the street.
Do you know how many times IN MY ENTIRE life I have uttered a chat up line, much less tried anything even remotely approaching a pick up?
None
Nada
Zip
Zilch
Zero
and every single one of them who did all those things was someone else's daughter, sister, wife or mother....
Trust me on this boys.
There is no subject on the planet that the average man knows less about than the sexuality of the average woman.
AfOR
Everything men do leads to rape - in 1867 a man in Istanbul took his hat out to be dry cleaned, and in 2006 an Eskimo woman reported a rape. See what i mean? The cause-effect is undeniable!
@Atom and Renee...
And, Gwallan, Reneee has an excellent point in that the chain of abuse must be broken at some point, otherwise the oppressed become the oppressors.
Ah but the "chain of abuse" is more often than not created by a female abuser to begin with. THIS is what real research actually shows. Significantly more than half of all rapes of women come about because we marginalise victims of women.
The victimised male, whether it be by false accusation or actual abuse, is always the one marginalised.
It is YOUR paradigm that creates further victimisation by disregarding actual victims at their point of origin. It's a common observation among male victims that nobody really cares about them unless they do something wrong.
IT IS YOUR BELIEF SYSTEM THAT MAINTAINS AND ENABLES THE CYCLE OF ABUSE.
We deny the male victim. We deny the female perpetrator. Because of your prejudices and those you support only part of the cycle is ever addressed. It reignites instantly as a consequence.
The belief systems you support are contrary to any notion of prevention.
"Now don't go blamin' the nazi-fems ... they weren't here yet."
Liar.
The Nazi puppets (like yourself) were just getting warmed up by the militant academics. I was told off in 1979 by lesbian feminists that by the year 2000 all marriage would be gone, all intercourse would be gone, all women's makeup would be gone.
They're still here. :)
"It applies to those men who have twisted ideas of masculinity that manifests itself through rape and their beliefs surrounding the issue of rape."
Ideas of masculinity,twisted or not, do NOT lead to rape. EVER. That is,unless you are going to seriously argue that twisted ideas about masculinity cause females to rape as well.
Sociopathy causes rape. Mental illness causes rape. Rapists rape people who then go on to rape themselves,even.
But masculinity has nothing to do with it you SICK,SEXIST,BIGOT PIECE OF SHIT. HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO SAY IT BEFORE IT GETS THROUGH YOUR THICK SEXIST SKULL!?
MASCULINITY IS NOT "A DISEASE".
MASCULINITY IS NOT "DANGEROUS".
MASCULINITY DOES NOT "CAUSE RAPE".
MASCULINITY HARMS NO ONE WHO IS NOT A SEXIST FEMALE SUPREMACIST FUCK WHO CAN'T BEAR THE THOUGHT THAT PEOPLE EXIST WHO DON'T HAVE HOLES BETWEEN THEIR LEGS.
MASCULINITY IS A VIRTUE. IT IS A POSITIVE THING.
At least we have never asserted that your psychosexual orientations are responsible for wars, crime,disease, or poverty.
"When groups of sorority women bond, their primary goal is not to coerce men sexually."
Oh, for fuck's sake! Point out one example. If this shit is going on all over the place then you should be able to easily come up with one example of some "rape club" somewhere where the men explicitly state that they were engaging in male bonding and the method they achieved this was by recounting tales of beating women into submission and then forcibly having sex with them,or by enacting these acts in front of one another.
Put up or shut up,you fucking troll!
You're so full of shit it's coming out of your fucking eyeballs.
Regarding sorority sisters not bonding over coercing men into sex, how the fuck can we know they don't?
Are we supposed to take your word for it?
For all we know, they could all be gang-raping drunk freshman guys right and left.
I challenge you to prove that they aren't.
Gwallan,
Ah but the "chain of abuse" is more often than not created by a female abuser to begin with. THIS is what real research actually shows. Significantly more than half of all rapes of women come about because we marginalise victims of women.
Ok....still if those victims in turn abuse others, should they be excused? The cycle still has to stop somewhere.
It is YOUR paradigm that creates further victimisation by disregarding actual victims at their point of origin. It's a common observation among male victims that nobody really cares about them unless they do something wrong.
I don't know who you're talking to because this doesn't apply to me. I'm aware that male victims and female perpetrators are ignored. It's tragic that male victims don't have the same support as female victims do, and that needs to change. It shouldn't take until they do something wrong for people to be concerned about them. But once again, should any crimes that they may commit be ignored?
IT IS YOUR BELIEF SYSTEM THAT MAINTAINS AND ENABLES THE CYCLE OF ABUSE.
Once again who are you talking to??? What you described has NOTHING to do with my belief system. I may agree with feminists on some things but they don't represent my entire belief system.
We deny the male victim. We deny the female perpetrator.
I know and that's truely sad.
Because of your prejudices and those you support only part of the cycle is ever addressed. It reignites instantly as a consequence.
Lol my prejudices?! Stop projecting your idea about feminists and feminism onto me. I never said that male victims should be ignored and disregarded. They shouldn't. And it's not all feminism's fault either.
Anon,
But masculinity has nothing to do with it you SICK,SEXIST,BIGOT PIECE OF SHIT.
That's laughable, considering it's the farthest from the truth.
MASCULINITY IS NOT "A DISEASE".
MASCULINITY IS NOT "DANGEROUS".
MASCULINITY DOES NOT "CAUSE RAPE"....
MASCULINITY IS A VIRTUE. IT IS A POSITIVE THING.
No shit Sherlock. I never said any of those things. And of course masculinity is a positive thing.
MASCULINITY HARMS NO ONE WHO IS NOT A SEXIST FEMALE SUPREMACIST FUCK WHO CAN'T BEAR THE THOUGHT THAT PEOPLE EXIST WHO DON'T HAVE HOLES BETWEEN THEIR LEGS.
LOL clearly you're going for dramatics here!
If you could get over your defensiveness, you'll realize that I never attacked masculinity itself. However I believe twisted ideas and warped beliefs about masculinity comes into play in cases of male rapists. I never said it was the only and sole cause of rape.
That is,unless you are going to seriously argue that twisted ideas about masculinity cause females to rape as well.
That doesn't even make any sense. You're grasping straws with this one. Males are the ones being taught warped ideas about what it means to be a man (not saying all of them for those of you who love to jump the gun), sense they are, well guys.
renee, wants a society where women teach men to be men.
Renee wants a society where women teach men to be men.
renee wants a society where women teach children to be adults also, and look at the mess they are making!!
@ Everyone,
Take a chill pill!
I would ask politely that some of these Anons (not you AfOR) please button it.
If we want to make any sort of point people can really look at, believe and understand we mustn't use the tactics of our enemy. Getting bent out of shape and flaming everything regardless of merit, isn't going to help.
Perhaps if we could remove some of the more pointless and spiteful comments thing wouldn't get so out of hand (There were two near the beginning of the thread).
@ Atom
You laud Archivist for making a good point with the "cottage industry", but I would ask you both ... what came first ... the chicken or the egg?
Good question. Answered like a scientist the egg came first, the creature that laid that egg wasn't a chicken it was incredibly alike to a chicken, but one evolutionary leap (maybe a half a centimeter short beak at best) from a chicken.
Which is really good for leading to that yes, there probably was a fair amount of rape but not as much as claimed. Once these organisations started they then had to remain in business by making it look bigger and bigger each year, lest they get cut down little by little.
-------------------------
Just some notes on the conversation, it seems that most people here are taking their definition of a frat from the movies.
Which we all know are true.
Seriously though, I'd like to see some real studies into this because i could see male bonding lowering rape rates. Purely speculation on my behalf but i think men with proper role models and social parameters would perform better in life and love.
I don't know very much of the greek system, but the female groups over here in Aus tended to be the ones more about getting guys to have sex with them. One group actually kept a chart in the dorm lounge room marking who they had sex with and how/when/where.
It is a two way street. University is a crazy time for sexual exploration.
If there's one thing that's certain life, it is that every time a violent act committed by a man against a woman, or several women and men mixed such as Va. Tech, all the femi-fascists will come forward publicly and claim, "this is what's wrong with masculinity in our culture!"
It's the way men are 'socialized'...i.e. they need to be 'socialized' to be more like women (and boys like girls). This is what fascists say and do - Social engineering, gagging of the opponent, effective gendercide (women's health trumps men's). All the signs are there. Those who do not see this are either feminists or dumbos.
should say, "certain IN life..."
"Males are the ones being taught warped ideas about what it means to be a man (not saying all of them for those of you who love to jump the gun), sense they are, well guys."
And you'd know all about what it means to be a man, from your extensive research in Wimminz Studeez,no doubt.
How do you know what men are taught about masculinity? What makes you think that most men today are taught anything at all about masculinity,seeing as how single mother households make up such a significant portion of American families and males who hold teaching positions are so few and far between?
Who is teaching males anything about masculinity? The fathers that many American children see only 4 days a month?
What makes you think that females are not being taught warped ideas about femininity?
"That doesn't even make any sense."
That's the point,stupid. Your ideas do not make sense. Rape is caused by an inability to view another person as a human being and not merely a tool. That is the result of a sociopathic personality disorder,NOT masculinity.
YOU are the one with warped ideas about masculinity if you are equating masculinity with sociopathy.
"If you could get over your defensiveness..."
Well,I COULD do that, if I weren't being labeled a "potential rapist" every time I turned my back. But see, there's nothing wrong with being "defensive" when you are constantly under attack, that's called "self-preservation".
", you'll realize that I never attacked masculinity itself."
You were about a heartbeat away from doing so. But fine, if that's the way you want to play it, I'll just start asserting that child murder or false rape accusations of rape or DV are caused by "twisted ideas about femininity" and then I'm sure I'll hear from a lot of women how fair an assertion that is.
You know, since the men's movement will last until the end of this century (according to Farrell), and then add a few more decades to fix all the remaining ills caused by feminism, none of us will be around to see the day when things are righted again. But if you think of it, that's better than having lived through the whole thing and then entering a 'new' society where sanity and equality are restored. The reason it is better is because you would be extremely pissed off to be around to see the new generations of women, go back to pretending they do not hate men.
Gentlemen, what you are currently witnessing is in fact how most women are at bottom line. You do not really know a person until they are provided the opportunity for the worst to come out of them. If any of you were to be around when sanity is restored, you would be considered by countless dipshits to be a 'bitter old man' for maintaining your low view of women.
And that Norm is why most old people are bitter. :P
Ok....still if those victims in turn abuse others, should they be excused? The cycle still has to stop somewhere.
It's worked well for women for about 25-30 years. The next time I read a news article about a man who's wife asked him to wear dress shoes when they had sex, then shot her in the back with a shotgun while she slept, pulled the phone cord out of the wall when she tried to use it to get help, and then only served 2 months in jail, then got custody of the kids and a house given to him..... then yes, I'll agree that the excuse making needs to stop. Oh, and let's not forget the Oprah appearance that goes with it.
Until women stand up and start demanding they be treated like adults, including the responsibilities and consequences that go with it, then don't expect a lot of men to listen when women bitch about how oppressed they are, or how men are all rapists, or bitter, or etc. ad naseum.
At this point, we can smell the BS from a mile away.
"And that Norm is why most old people are bitter.
I know what you're trying to say, but some times the bitterness really is justified. Like it will be in the scenario I talked about above. You can think of it as a validity which transcends all times - fascism has historically been considered a bad thing. Wrong is wrong.
Veldan,
also, the 'countless dipshits' I refer to never see the overall trend, as they consider everything to be 'cyclical' or generational. Many of these dipshits are the smiling jackass psychologists or psychotherapists.
@ Norm
I think you read into my words a bit much.
I was agreeing with you. More making a bit of a play at the fact that social standards as a whole have come down a fair way (particularly in regards to how men and women behave themselves sexually). This would of course account for a lot of "bitter old people".
Hell I'm bitter about it now and I'm young. Can't imagine how detached and repulsed I'll feel when I'm old.
Veldan,
as I concluded on my blog (where I do analyses of media productions), the baby boomers (of which I am one) have handed down shit to succeeding generations. This is the main source of the problem. Maybe it's only proper that most of the big-name MRA's are boomers.
Since Tom Brokaw's 'Greatest Generation', and the succeeding one , after that it's been downhill.
The same prancing yippie fairies that invented hatred of America , now, as 'yuppies' have bestowed upon us hatred of men. Though men are at a disadvantage biologically, the aforesaid fairies have ensured the societal approval of misandry. It is thoroughly entrenced within the system.
Atom,
You have asked me this question about my experience in West-Sumatra:
"Well, obviously they do not fear strange men on the street. Now do you honestly believe it's because Sumatra lacks propaganda against men, or do you think it might be attributed to more than that?"
Thank you for your interest in the Minangkabau people.
I didn't say the reason Minangkabau women feel at ease around men in the way I described was because West-Sumatra "lacks propaganda against men" as you have put it. Although I am glad we agree that events and books such as Sanday's are little more than mere propaganda.
I believe women in West-Sumatra aren't afraid of men because they don't have any reason to be. The way girls grow up in West-Sumatra they become very self-confident, responsible and competent people. This is my personal impression.
I feel that people there are lucky that their healthy relations between the sexes are not poisoned in the way we find it in the West. So that hopefully it stays that way. Unlike it is in the West where more anti-men propaganda is published daily, especially on campus.
This is also in light of today's post 'When I go out on a date [...]'. Another example how women are instructed to fear men and men are being categorically bashed as potential rapists who need to watch their every step so as not unsettle women.
Women in West-Sumatra don't view all men as potential rapists. It's my believe that installing an unrealistic fear of the male gender in the minds of young women and making men feel shame is counterproductive to foster healthy relationships.
She never attacked male bonding ITSELF but rather what is placed ON male bonding. It doesn't apply to all instances of male bonding but perhaps it applies to some that fit the criteria.
One could presume that the phrase "male social and sexual dominance" refers to a specific set of circumstances, however, the phrase "a premium placed on male bonding — for example, in college fraternities" demonstrates a different connotation. When taken on the whole her statement implies that all college fraternities are bastions of rape (presumably only against females). When taken in part, the latter portion implies that anything male-centric, like fraternities, are by default bastions of rape. Technically speaking, she is attacking male bonding itself, either indirectly or directly depending on how one wishes to take her statement.
This conclusion is supported by the other related articles linked on the source page. Neither of the two other articles about Sanday mentioned anything positive about fraternities in and of themselves. It was Sanday's contention that "[Rituals] are meant to change [one's] consciousness . . . to strip you down and build you up," she said. "In Western society [there is] a tradition in which bonding between men is sacrificed [at the expense of women]."
None of the articles mention what rituals she is condemning (or how she would know about them since many are secret). All anyone is left with is the fact that fraternities promote male bonding and apparently Sanday takes specific issue with that fact and simply uses certain certain criteria as her justification for that position. Perhaps this is explained in her book, but it is not explained in the articles about her book. However, having taken a look at some of the reviews of her book, it does not appear that she is saying anything positive about fraternities, all-male groups or male bonding.
Her argument appears to be that the institution itself -- the concept of an all-male environment -- is what Sanday is actually taking issue with.
And you'd know all about what it means to be a man, from your extensive research in Wimminz Studeez,no doubt.
And you (and others) know all about what it means to be a woman no doubt or what they're all about no doubt. And if went through any extensive research about what it means to be a man, it would have been from my father, God, the Bible, and my Bishop.
How do you know what men are taught about masculinity?
I never said I did. I just say that some mean are taught wrong ideas about masculinity, whether they be from family, peers, or by society. Just like how people are taught warped ideas and non-Biblical priniciples about what it means to be a Christian and God.
What makes you think that females are not being taught warped ideas about femininity?
I never said they weren't.
That's the point,stupid.
Oh namecalling, how mature of you lol.
Your ideas do not make sense.
Yours don't either.
Rape is caused by an inability to view another person as a human being and not merely a tool. That is the result of a sociopathic personality disorder,NOT masculinity.
I never said that masculinity itself was the cause. What part of that don't you understand? Any crime that a person commits can be related to what they were taught.
If a racist person was taught to hate blacks and murdered one, would you not think that what the murder was taught played a role. Doesn't skewed ideas about masculinity involve believing that women are tools in a way among other things. Of course this doesn't represent true masculinity.
YOU are the one with warped ideas about masculinity if you are equating masculinity with sociopathy.
I'M.NOT. See the above comment. MY GOD are you that dense?
Well,I COULD do that, if I weren't being labeled a "potential rapist" every time I turned my back. But see, there's nothing wrong with being "defensive" when you are constantly under attack, that's called "self-preservation".
Really now? If a feminists said that, you would call it "playing the victim".
Veldan at Oct 13, 2009 11:46:00 PM,
Great post :)
ToySoldier,
Very enlightening post. I admit it gave me pause.
Toysoldier, Sanday's book "Fraternity Rape" emphasizes the danger of male-bonding in fraternities -- not as an institution. Also, I wouldn't use the word "institution" when referring to male-bonding in general.
The rituals in ALL "social" Greek fraternities are secret. Sanday started her research for the book in the 80's. Although never privy to any of these rituals, she interviewed many frat members from various colleges.
Rituals as well as hazing are ALL part of male-bonding. Personally, I think the most destructive "ism" that pledges learn prior to initiation is that "a pledge is totally dependent on his brothers no matter what, and reciprocally, his brothers are dependent on him". All for one, one for all, no matter WHAT.
Bad? Not on the surface. But these guys are conditioned to believe that loyalty among the brotherhood outweighs any sense of moral obligation. In my opinion, it is (or was) a brain-washing technique.
I can't speak to what goes on today behind fraternity walls, but I can definitely talk about the past. The deeply entrenched traditional beliefs of brotherhood harbored many rapists.
"Any crime that a person commits can be related to what they were taught."
No.
If I am starving and I steal a loaf of bread, what has that to do with what I was taught about anything?
"I just say that some mean are taught wrong ideas about masculinity, whether they be from family, peers, or by society."
That's probably the case. There are a lot of people with wrong ideas about everything, why make a point of bringing up masculinity?
A person's ideas about masculinity have NOTHING to do with ANYTHING.
"I never said they weren't."
Yes,you did. You SPECIFICALLY SAID SO, when you said:
"Males are the ones being taught warped ideas about what it means to be a man..."
"Doesn't skewed ideas about masculinity involve believing that women are tools in a way among other things. Of course this doesn't represent true masculinity."
I've never heard of any ideas about masculinity which assert that women are just tools to be used for a man's pleasure. Men go out of their way to seek approval from females. If most men thought of women as tools,why would we give a fuck about their approval?
I don't ask my lawnmower for permission to cut the grass.
With a straight face,
Anon says to Renee:
"I've never heard of any ideas about masculinity which assert that women are just tools to be used for a man's pleasure."
Come wif me dahlink ... so I can brief you on the ideas "some" men have about masculinity.
"Come wif me dahlink ... so I can brief you on the ideas "some" men have about masculinity."
The only thing I was taught about masculinity was to shut up and do whatever it took to keep the women in my life happy. Ask any man what messages he has about masculinity and he'll tell you he was taught the same.
This shit about men being taught to think of women as tools being somehow related to masculinity is all in your sick little heads.
To tell the truth, I think that's what you WANT to believe about men. I think you NEED to believe it, because I think,deep down,you like the idea.
Actually, no, I don't believe that at all, but I couldn't resist pulling your leg. I believe most men were raised with good moral values ... as you were.
This shit about men being taught to think of women as tools being somehow related to masculinity is all in your sick little heads.
UGH! Once again, true masculinity isn't like that! Seriously, why is that so hard for you to understand?
To tell the truth, I think that's what you WANT to believe about men. I think you NEED to believe it, because I think,deep down,you like the idea.
And I think that you WANT to believe that I/we believe that about men. I think that you NEED to believe that in order to validate your beliefs.
Once again, true masculinity isn't like that!
One problem with that idea. You can't tell a man what "true" masculinity is, any more than I can tell a woman what "true" femininity is.
It's the same kind of garbage, as when you hear a woman state (and on any site that discusses men's issues, we hear it a lot):
A "Real Man"....
How the hell would you know? You're not a man. A woman can't define what a "real" man is. Any more than I can define what a "real" woman is. Never going to happen. Only what your (or my) idea of a "real" anything is. It's individual for each person. And it's the height of conceit to presume you (not you specifically, the generic you) can tell another person what a "Real" man/woman is.
All I can state for certain (or you for that matter), is what we think is ideal, in our own minds, as to what a "real" XXXXX is.
"And I think that you WANT to believe that I/we believe that about men. I think that you NEED to believe that in order to validate your beliefs."
Renee,do you have reading comprehension problems or something? Atom was specifically stating that masculinity caused men to see women as tools. Here \/
"Come wif me dahlink ... so I can brief you on the ideas "some" men have about masculinity."
She then went on to ADMIT that she was saying it, but said it was a joke,HERE.
\/
"Actually, no, I don't believe that at all, but I couldn't resist pulling your leg. I believe most men were raised with good moral values ... as you were."
"The deeply entrenched traditional beliefs of brotherhood harbored many rapists"
Please explain and clarify, then cite scientific evidence.
"Mental illness causes rape"
where'd you get that idea?
Renee,do you have reading comprehension problems or something? Atom was specifically stating that masculinity caused men to see women as tools.
Well it's obvious that you do, because true masculinity (or at least the general definition of masculinity stated in the Bible, by God, the Bishop from my church, and presented by the male members of my family) don't see women as tools.
Anyway, what does Atom have anything to do with what I posted?
-------------
Archivist,
Well do you see real masculinity as men seeing women as tools? Of course not, it's obvious that doesn't represent masculinity! Then unless you think masculinity consists of seeing women as tools, what's the problem?
Once again it seems that you have selective reading:
And if went through any extensive research about what it means to be a man, it would have been from my father, God, the Bible, and my Bishop from my church.
*Edited* and from post Oct 14, 2009 4:04:00 PM.
Masculinity and femininity doesn't involve abusing your loved-ones, tearing them down, mistreating them, treating them as tools, using them, etc. When it came to true masculinity, you can say I was speaking in a general sense. So all you anger at me and hissy fits are pointless and ridiculous. There's not point in getting into a discussion with someone who's emotional.
All I can state for certain (or you for that matter), is what we think is ideal, in our own minds, as to what a "real" XXXXX is.
Lol something tells me that this is an insult direct at me. Anyway, I can say the same thing as to what a "real" *insert insult* is.
What's the problem? Women trying to define for me what masculinism is, and then calling it bad.
No insult intended. It is something different to each person, and another person trying to define femininity for you, or masulinity for me, is just flat wrong. You and I can have an opinion of each, but what it actually is, is for us to determine for ourselves.
Well what do you know? I went down to the store and read a copy of the latest FRSTrolls supermarket tabloid. It's published by Atom, Renee, jeana and SgtMom. It's full of lies, hatred, hypocrisy and jealousy.
Of course it resides in the feminist section of the store. ;)
"where'd you get that idea?"
It's an extremely dumbed-down way of saying that rapists are sociopaths,and not hypermacho guys who are attempting to "prove their manhood" by raping a woman.
I tried explaining that fact several times to the trolls and became extremely frustrated because they are still insisting that harboring "the wrong ideas about masculinity" fosters a mentality that it's ok to rape.
Well, even if one religiously followed John Wayne movies and literally worshiped Arnold Swarzenegger, you would still have to possess the mindset that it's ok to hurt others as long as it advances your own interests.In other words, you have to be a sociopath to rape in the first place and "twisted ideas about masculinity" have never caused a healthy person to spontaneously develop a sociopathic personality disorder.
"Well it's obvious that you do, because true masculinity (or at least the general definition of masculinity stated in the Bible, by God, the Bishop from my church, and presented by the male members of my family) don't see women as tools.
Anyway, what does Atom have anything to do with what I posted?"
*Facepalm*
You're not even reading the comments,are you?
I'm through arguing on the subject now.
Renee is a complete idiot.
You're not even reading the comments,are you?
Yes I am. Obviously you're not because you made such a comment.
Atom was specifically stating that masculinity caused men to see women as tools.
What Atom posts have nothing to do with me or my posts. Now if you were talking about this part:
"Actually, no, I don't believe that at all, but I couldn't resist pulling your leg. I believe most men were raised with good moral values ... as you were."
I agree with her. I've always believed this. I don't generalize like some of you do.
anon,
is there really something called 'sociopathic personality disorder' and it's considered a mental illness. Not that I'm doubting you? I'm just wondering.
If true, it sounds like the psychology/psychology industry is starting to get its tentacles around criminal behaviour itself. Although I suppose 'kleptomania' and probably a few others have been around for a while.
Like Hannibal Lecter said, "there is no such thing as evil..." (of course he was being sarcastic).
should say 'psychology/psychotherapy'
"anon,
is there really something called 'sociopathic personality disorder' and it's considered a mental illness. Not that I'm doubting you? I'm just wondering."
It is generally known as Antisocial Personality Disorder,sociopathic tendencies are common in people with the disorder, but according to a lot of research being a sociopath is not exactly synonymous with having ASPD and vice versa.
Renee,
I am not arguing with you anymore. No form of masculinity, twisted or otherwise, is responsible for rape.
If you want the truth, it is masculinity that KEEPS your ass from being raped every day.
You said you believed in God?
Then,I believe you should be getting down on your knees every day and thanking him that he designed men the way we are, because if it wasn't for our inherent masculinity and desire to provide for and protect those less advantaged in position to ourselves, 100% of all women would be raped every single day and there would be nothing that women individually or collectively could do to stop it.
Rapists aren't necessarily sociopaths, any more than burglars are. Rape is a garden variety crime. Anyone who is a criminal could commit a rape, and few criminals who do commit rape do it more than once. That is what the statistics say.
In fact, convicted sex offenders who are released from prison are no more likely than other felons to commit a rape! So treating rape as a unique crime tantamount to murder really doesn't make sense. You reduce rape by being tough on other crimes, not by thinking up creative new ways to torture convicted rapists.
Since A-troll and others have repeated this ad nauseum, allow me to repeat: rape is NOT caused by frat culture, or by male bonding, or by anything other than a criminal's lack of self-control.
Any man who regularly commits crimes can end up committing a rape because he is unable to set limits on his behavior as normal people do. If rape really was caused by anything in particular the statistics would show that. They don't.
Rapists who are released from prison usually are convicted (IF they are convicted) of crimes other than rape when they return. (However, the recidivism rate for convicted sex offenders is much lower than for other felons -- which raises the question of how many convicted sex offenders are really innocent.)
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