It's a holiday weekend in the United States -- Monday is Labor Day, traditionally viewed as the unofficial end of summer. I thought this might be an appropriate time to reach into the archives in order to motivate the troops, sort of remind us all why we're here. Head back with me to 1993, and the celebrated date rape trial of college student Austen Donnellan.
Now follow this closely. After a seven-day trial, Mr. Donnellan was found not guilty by a jury of nine women and two men who deliberated for just more than an hour. The following portion in italics is from the news article:
Mr Donnellan had always protested his innocence, saying that he felt as though he was 'being picked up'. 'This was not a dead piece of meat I was having sex with. This idea that she was in a drunken stupor was a lie. I think she was very aware of what was happening. If she was not aware, I would not have proceeded with sex.'
Summing up, Judge Geoffrey Grigson said: 'A person who is drunk, and because she is drunk consents to an act which she would not when sober, still consents. Drunken consent is enough. But a woman who is so drunk that she has no understanding of what is happening cannot consent.'
During a testimony lasting four hours, Mr Donnellan had described how the woman had grabbed him by his T-shirt, pulled him on to her bed and repeatedly begged him to have sexual intercourse with her.
Later in the night, he awoke to find the woman stroking his back and body. He responded by undoing her night shirt and climbing on top of her. But when Mr Donnellan saw her eyes close and her head turn to one side, he assumed she had gone back to sleep. Moments later, she sat up, said 'I can't believe you just tried to screw me,' and walked out of the room. Mr Donnellan left a few minutes later.
Mr Donnellan described how the couple had kissed at the party, so passionately that at one point they fell to the floor. The woman had earlier drunk what one witness called a 'lethal cocktail' of cider, vodka and Drambuie. Mr Donnellan said he escorted her outside to get some fresh air and seeing that she was in no fit state to return to the party, carried her back to the room in a university hall of residence.
The court also heard how Mr Donnellan and the woman had become close friends over the previous 18 months. Despite kissing him passionately on several occasions, the woman rejected his offer of a relationship, preferring a series of one-night stands with other men, the sexual details of which she relayed to Mr Donnellan.
The woman admitted she had been so drunk that night that she did not remember leaving the party or going home. In cross-examination, she denied ever consenting to sex, but pressed by Michel Massih, for the defence, conceded that she could not remember anything. During legal argument in the absence of the jury, Judge Grigson asked counsel: 'If she cannot be sure it was rape, how can the jury?'
____________________________________
Well, Judge, the jury wasn't sure, or perhaps it was sure that it wasn't a rape. The jurors certainly didn't take very long to come to that conclusion after a seven day trial.
But that didn't stop Siwan Hayward, founder of the "No Means No" anti-rape campaign, from "overruling" the verdict. According to a news report: ". . . [D]espite the verdict in favour of Austen Donnellan, she still believed his accuser. 'Women don't lie about rape,' she said."
Did you get that? Remember, the accuser couldn't even say if she'd been raped -- but Ms. Hayward -- believed her? Um . . . come again? In any event, to Ms. Hayward, everything Mr. Donnellan said under oath was automatically invalid -- unworthy of belief, jury verdict be damned. Before the trial even started, Mr. Donnellan was Guilty By Reason of Penis in Ms. Hayward's eyes. No rape defendant can ever be believed according to this "logic," because a rape accuser says otherwise. Every man and boy victimized by a false rape claim that we feature on this site is, in the eyes of people like Ms. Hayward, a rapist. Why not just dispense with the trial altogether? As soon as they are accused, take them out to the town square, tie a noose around their balls, and hang them high -- as an example to other young men who might someday come within the cross hairs of a woman angry enough, for whatever reason, to cry rape.
The fact is, women, like men, lie about everything under the sun but, mirabile dictu, according to misandrists who claim women don't lie about rape, the subject of rape acts as a truth serum, a magic elixir, that forces anyone not possessing a Y-Chromosome to speak incontrovertible truth. When it comes to rape, one gender is incapable of telling a lie while the other is incapable of telling anything but lies. (Except, of course, when the woman recants her rape claim -- in that instance, she automatically reverts to being a liar -- double-X chromosome be damned.)
"Women don't lie about rape" is up there with "one-in-four women are raped by the time they go to college/while they're in college/before Thanksgiving of Freshman year/in their lifetimes" (take your pick), and "recantations of rape are suspect." On and on they blather, one feminist mantra cascades atop the next until they collapse upon one another to form a sort of Rorschach inkblot of unmistakable misandry.
And that, my friends, is why we're here.
Saturday, September 5, 2009
'Women don't lie about rape': Men accused of rape are automatically 'guilty by reason of penis'
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138 comments:
You both are doing a great service with this site. Thanks for your efforts, and have a great Labor Day!
Thanks, Novaseeker. That means a lot coming from one of the true leaders of the movement.
Fascist:
1. A political philosophy, movement, or regime that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2. A tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control
...."and forcible suppression of opposition"
Sexist:
1. Prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially discrimination against women
2. Behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex
"....especially discrimination against women"
It is my hope that the men here will think about both of these and open their eyes to 40 years of organized feminism. We have been taken over from within.
RM
Excellent post. This website is one of the greatest things I have ever seen!
I'm assuming this whole article is some sort of joke?
Alleged rapist says,
"This was not a dead piece of meat I was having sex with. This idea that she was in a drunken stupor was a lie. I think she was very aware of what was happening. If she was not aware, I would not have proceeded with sex."
Like what did you EXPECT him to say -- in front of a jury.
He probably also claimed that she gave him "mixed" messages?
"I'm assuming this whole article is some sort of joke? . . . . Like what did you EXPECT him to say -- in front of a jury. He probably also claimed that she gave him "mixed" messages?"
Gee, Mr./Ms. Troll, did you happen to read what SHE said at trial?
Or did you glide right over that -- you know, because it doesn't fit your uber radical gender feminist metanarrative?
She doesn't remember what happened.
Did you read that? Did those words click in?
So, let me put this in a way that even a radical feminist can understand: if she doesn't remember what happened, she doesn't remember if she manifested outward signs of consent.
That is, SHE CAN'T SAY IF SHE WAS RAPED.
Get it now, Mr./Ms. Troll?
So, in other words, Mr./Ms. Troll, there was exactly ZERO evidence of rape here. You don't even have to believe the dirty, filty, lying male, OK?
"In cross-examination, . . . she . . . conceded that she could not remember anything."
Did you happen to notice that?
I mean, you CAN read English, right?
And how would you answer the Judge, "If she cannot be sure it was rape, how can the jury?" Hmm? Hmm?
But, of course, why let the facts ruin a good feminist victim fetish?
I mean, why would THAT little fact matter to misandrists like you and Ms. Hayward? All you see is (1) a rape accusation and (2) a penis, and you've made up your minds: guilty by reason of penis! Anything the male creature says in defense (even if true) MUST BE FALSE, because -- HA! -- OF COURSE HE'D LIE!
Can't argue with THAT logic!
Tell your sisters at Feministing that I welcome debate with the yipping, yapping brain-dead of radical feminism.
"I'm assuming this whole article is some sort of joke?"
'So then HE says: "What do you think I am, a RAPIST?'
All jokes aside. You're a sexist bigot,Anon. People like you are the reason men spend 10 years in prison,get lynched,or kill themselves only to be exonerated by DNA evidence later.
De facto guilty by reason of penis is sexism,plain and simple. Most men do not rape,however women DO LIE ABOUT RAPE and for the most trivial reasons imaginable.
May you sexist feminazis all burn in hell.
Because "I don't remember" means she was raped, right? She wasn't obviously interested in him while they were making out, and there is absolutely no way a woman would ever come on to anyone while drunk. Nope.
Anon is a cunt. When men don't testify in their defense at rape trials, the whiny lesbian feminists cry foul. This kid did testify and they claim he obviously can't be believed because he didn't agree with the female!!!!
Take the bitch's logic to it's extreme and why should there ever be a trial? Of course the defendant would lie!
Good rebuttals, all. But isn't it a shame? They're still going over this fellow 16 years after he thought his nightmare was over! I can't imagine any actual rape would be this bad.
Stories like these make me count my blessings that I was born a male,we truly are the privileged sex.
I mean, it's so great being an automatic rapist just because you possess a penis and all the joyful lynch beatings,slander,and possible genital mutilation that go along with that illustrious title.
I wake up every day with a smile on my face knowing that if a woman falsely accuses me of rape and I am exonerated before a jury of my peers,I'll still be viewed with suspicion because-after all- I DO have a penis.
"I wake up every day with a smile on my face knowing that if a woman falsely accuses me of rape and I am exonerated before a jury of my peers,I'll still be viewed with suspicion because-after all- I DO have a penis."
Yep -- great comment. Even 16 years later, some angry feminist will still insist that, of COURSE you lied at trial! You have a penis!
Like what did you EXPECT him to say -- in front of a jury.
So if that's your dad, or your brother, or (to reverse sexes for a moment) your girlfriend or whoever up there on trial, we should automatically disbelieving everything they say, just because they're saying it in front of a jury?
That's authoritarian reasoning for you, whoever you are. You probably think you're a liberal, right? But no, "never ever believe the defendent no matter what!" isn't the mantra of a liberal. Those are the things you say when your ideology has been perverted so far that you mistake raw fascism for freedom and equality.
By your standard, you could convict anybody of rape.
Even Mother fucking Theresa!
First find your head, then find your humanity.
It was mentioned that there are probably as many compulsive lying males as there are females. That is probably true.
Here's the difference: false accusations of rape are institutionalized lying; lying enabled by powerful entities in the media, in academia and above all by the machinery of the state.
When every single news article about a rape claim involves concealing the identity of the accuser and rubberstamping the accusations with the authority of police, that is a lie that our entire society enables.
When false accusers are almost never prosected, then the crime of false accusations becomes a crime committed by the state, for the state.
When a man lies about a woman, he can only do very slight arm. But when a woman lies about a man the harm caused is without limit.
We are all responsible for this systematic persecution of males in our society.
"I'm assuming this whole article is some sort of joke?"
Didn't I just get through saying 40 years of organized feminism? Here's one of their products.
RM
Isn't it interesting how women throw their own rights away in their zeal to get revenge against men?
"'Women don't lie about rape'
A complete lie that is proven to be such as is evidenced by the reports of false rape accusations we discuss in this blog and reported by the few brave media that dare to report the stories of false rape and sexual assault accusations.
Strange that anyone would make that claim, considering that women are routinely convicted of fraud crimes such as identity theft.
"He probably also claimed that she gave him "mixed" messages?"
maybe she did, stupid. What's the problem?
Ditto what Nova said about this site. I don't often comment, but visit frequently.
Thanks for what you do, Pierce.
If you were an innocent defendent, and morons say with no basis whatsoever -- "He's guilty!" -- what response do you have?
None, that's what. You can only use logic as a defense if you're dealing with logical people who base their beliefs on facts. THIS IS WHY FALSE ACCUSATIONS MUST BE PUNSISHED -- ONLY BY SENDING THE LIARS TO PRISON CAN A VICTIM TRULY BE EXONERATED.
It is just too easy for idiots to tarnish an innocent man by repeating lies that have already been disproven!
If a drunk driver is so drunk he doesn't realize hes driving when he kills 3 people, is he still responsible for his actions?
It stands to reason then that a woman who is so drunk she doesn't realize shes having sex is responsible for her actions as well. Just because some one sober, or less inebriated, or as inebriated is involved doesn't make her a victim.
Is the drunk driver a victim of his passengers?
” I thought this might be an appropriate time to reach into the archives in order to motivate the troops, sort of remind us all why we're here.”
Pierce & Steven,
The work that the two of you put into this site is both humbling and inspiring. Thank you so much for bring the issue of false rape reports to light.
And, I thought I’d add, it seems that other sources of news/issues are beginning to pick up on the fact that lies can cause great harms to innocent people.
I bring this up after reading this account (http://www.theweeklyvice.com/2009/09/michael-r-reagan-coach-acquitted-of.html) of a man falsely accused of raping two boys in what appears to have been little more than an attempt to extort money from him.
And, as that guy who’s always sticking up for DA’s and police, it pains me to report that this account also paints a very dim picture of the behaviors of those authorities in this case. It was clearly on of those cases that should have been dismissed long before taking it to trial (and putting on what amounts to a “non-prosecution”) – at great expense, to both the government and the innocent man. [My personal speculation is that in Fayetteville, Arkansas, there was a lot of political pressure NOT to drop a gay-rape case – along with an innocent man refusing to plead to any lesser charges (good for him!)]
The article goes on to note the damage done to this man, and that media which had gladly announced his indictment had largely chosen to ignore his acquittal.
The story addresses so much of what the two of you seek to highlight on this site.
And, while this is well off-topic, I’d like to add that the “Weekly Vice” website also had an item about a 21- year-old Missouri man who’s been indicted in Colorado for allegedly arranging to travel to Colorado to have sex with two young girls (who he knew were underage – 10 and 13).
Now, it’s not unusual for the Weekly Vice to highlight an obscure story about the antics of apparent perverts, there is something about this which, as I see it, speaks to the media’s seeming desire to highlight instances of male misbehaviors while ignoring (sometimes even worse misbehaviors by women).
Andrew Troy Johnson, while his alleged actions are reprehensible, never-the-less did NOT actually have sex with any underage girls, yet he is held up as a model of the evils of male sexuality and male rapists everywhere. One might even wonder why his case would merit any media attention – given the cases that they “over-look”. Yet, this item appears (gleaned from new-feeds) the very next day after the case against him was filed in court.
When my wife (full disclosure – the DA who filed those charges against Johnson) saw this item had been posted, she wondered aloud why there was nothing about Kira Parker likewise posted.
Kira Parker, you see, is a 28 year-old women who WAS having sex with a 15 year-old boy (repeatedly), who my wife had also files much more serious charges against. A search done just a few minutes ago reveals that there is still no mention of her case. What Kira Parker has done is far more serious, far more harmful, and even far more salacious (as far as news fodder), yet, silence.
Johnson is a young man, who as my wife noted, made a stupid mistake for which he will likely pay dearly (life-time sex-offender registration), and suffers the great indignity of having his offenses publicized before the world. Meanwhile, Parker, is afforded anonymity and a media black-out of her much more serious crimes. [no need to worry about any “pussy-pass” here. My wife is unmovable from her best offer which includes prison time plus life-time registration for Parker. Johnson has been given an offer which would spare him from prison altogether. Just wanted to throw that in to make the point that not all DA’s are out to get men selectively] .
"Kira Parker, you see, is a 28 year-old women who WAS having sex with a 15 year-old boy (repeatedly)"
My apologies. I seems I misspoke.
Kira Parker had been RAPING a 15 yr-old boy. And, I don't just mean statutorally. No, she FORCED an (at least initially) unwilling boy to have sex with her. Straight-up RAPE, no way for feminist/chivalorous spin to minimize it.
To Defining Manhood:
Your analogy lacks logic. A drunk driver kills 3 victims. Did anyone "force" liquor down his throat before he killed people?
A drunk girl, on the other hand, is UNABLE to consent to sex. Whoever knowlingly stoops low enough to have sex with a drunk woman is a rapist. No way around it.
Lesson here is DO NOT have sex with a drunk woman. It's called RAPE. Why is it so difficult to get that message across?
Anon 2:28
First, thanks to all the commentators here except for the nasty troll. Novaseeker and EW are two of the leading men's rights bloggers in the world, and it is for good reason their blogs are so popular. Norm and slwerner -- I'd seriously like both of you on our team.
Second, slwerner -- great posts. Very informative.
The 'conditioned' mind of Western society:
There is no such thing as false rape.
There is no such thing as a falsified rape.
There is no such thing as a woman lying about rape.
There is no such thing as pre-meditated false rape.
There is no such thing as self-inflicted injury and falsely claiming it was rape.
There is no such thing as falsifying a rape as a means of extortion.
This homogenous belief system is brought to you by 40 years of organized feminism.
Feminism - Changing the world through victimhood....one lie at a time.
RM
A drunk girl, on the other hand, is UNABLE to consent to sex. Whoever knowlingly stoops low enough to have sex with a drunk woman is a rapist. No way around it.
Lesson here is DO NOT have sex with a drunk woman. It's called RAPE. Why is it so difficult to get that message across?
Because that's not true, and the judge in this case understood very clearly that it's not true. Drunk sex is not rape -- a drunken woman CAN consent to sex.
If juries everywhere were to accept your idiotic interpretation of this, any time a man and a woman had gotten drunk together and fucked would be an act of male rape -- which is absurd on its face, since both the man and the woman are behaving in exactly the same way. As usual, a feminist moron is putting all of the responsibility into the man's lap, while demanding equal treatment for the man and the woman. It doesn't work that way.
But wait! Feminists aren't necessarily against college girls getting drunk and fucking like beasts: http://www.feministing.com/archives/012426.html
There's nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing wrong with girls getting drunk and screwing everything that movies, damnit! Quit the slut-shaming already! (Until she decides to falsely accuse her drunken male partners of rape -- THEN it's a problem...)
That should read "that moves," not "that movies," lol.
Someone who is too tipsy to drive a car can often still consent to sexual intercourse, sign a contract, or do any number of other things under law. At a certain point, a person loses the ability to make rational decisions, and at that point, it's rape. If the accused reasonably believes the other party has sufficient ability to make a conscious, rational decision, then its not rape.
With all that said, I continue to preach that alcohol in excess and sex are an awful combination. It can too easily lead to rape charges, and it can too easily lead to false rape claims. It's often too messy for the law to deal with to anyone's satisfaction. Both young men and young women have much to lose putting themselves in that situation.
What do young woman have to lose? They aren't going to prison for their behavior.
Imagine if every time a man and woman got drunk and screwed the woman had a tiny explosive device implanted in her body, and the man got a tiny transmitter that would still be operable decades later -- from then on, that man could blow her apart just by pressing a button.
That's pretty much the way it works, except it's the drunken woman who is handed the power to destroy her sexual partners -- just by pretending that she was raped!
This isn't about "equality" but about women having sexual freedom while men are sexual serfs.
Anon -- I love the bomb analogy. That is more accurate than a lot of people would want to believe. Trust me, I get it, I get it. I agree young men have the most to lose in that situation. Since you asked I'll tell you what I was thinking. Some people can't believe it but some girls do get pregnant stupidly and -- believe it or not -- they have grave moral problems with abortion. OK? That's what I was thinking.
And again, let's not think every stupid girl who gets drunk and has sex is going to cry "rape." Most of them accept personal responsibility and maybe tell themselves, "Gee that was dumb." It's a relative few who cry "rape."
Not all drunken girls cry rape. I agree.
But wait! Feminists aren't necessarily against college girls getting drunk and fucking like beasts: http://www.feministing.com/archives/012426.html
No they're not (or at least the ones on that site) against men and women having sex, but if you really read the post and comments, they are against getting drunk:
"What immediately struck me about this clip, however, is that the film shouldn't be about hooking up - but about booze. Perhaps the real problem on college campuses isn't that kids are having sex, but that they're having it drunk. Just a thought."
The post wasn't about that at all but more about the supposed "hook up culture".
There's nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing wrong with girls getting drunk and screwing everything that movies, damnit! Quit the slut-shaming already! (Until she decides to falsely accuse her drunken male partners of rape -- THEN it's a problem...)
One, why do people overexaggerate when it comes to sex, women, and feminism? What makes you think that the women in the video said anything that's any different than what guys say? I don't really condone casual sex or getting drunk, but if guys aren't really seen in a negative light for doing so, then then the same should apply to women. Or if the women who have casual sex and drink are "sluts", then the men who also engage in casual sex and drinking should be considered "sluts" too.
But hey, GOD FORBID that there are women who enjoy having sex!
This isn't about "equality" but about women having sexual freedom while men are sexual serfs.
See why should the entire idea of sexual freedom for both sexes suffer just because there are those who cry rape?
I honestly don't remember how I found this site. I think I found it from a guy's Youtube account that had the link to this site. I have seen comments from guys who complained about false rape accusations, and I admit, I thought that they were inconsiderate, misogynistic (mainly based on what they actual said), rape apologists, etc.
Let me explain. I didn't deny that false rape accusations happened, I just thought that they happened at the same percentage as any other crime. I thought (as many others do), that with any reported crime there are false accusations.
And then I visited this site. Now, I still may be not entirely convinced that there's a honest epidemic of false rape accusations, but I'm beginning to understand that it happens a lot more than other crimes. I also acknowledge that there's a problem with how rape cases are handled, from the police to the courts.
While I believe that there's still a problem with how rape victims are viewed and treated, there also a problem with false rape accusations and the treatment of its victims.
We may disagree on a few things, but this site is pretty insightful. Great job! As Nova said, you both are doing a great service.
Archivist, I agree with your last few posts, except for the following statements, which I find ridiculous:
"At a certain point, a person loses the ability to make rational decisions, and at that point, it's rape."
You should have ended on that note, but you continued:
"If the accused reasonably believes the other party has sufficient ability to make a conscious, rational decision, then its not rape."
Do you honestly believe any sane man accused of rape, guilty or innocent, would ADMIT that his accuser had consumed too much alcohol, therefore unable to make a rational decision to have sex with him?
Anon-4:33
Men, always remember the dominant mindset that you are surrounded by EVERYDAY of your life, at work, at school, at church, at a bus stop, a shopping mall, a library, a night club, a restaurant, at home, etc. The dangerous mindset that comes from 40 years of mental conditioning courtesy of organized feminism.
"There is no such thing as false rape!"
"There is a real tooth fairy before there is an actual real falsified rape!"
"A woman would never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever lie about rape! Never ever!"
Burn this false belief system in your mind, know what you're up against, think about this the next you time you decide to have any sexual relations with a woman.
RM
This is silly. If she went there to get drunk and fuck and she gets drunk and fucks then it wasn't rape, period. There is no need to get into hypotheticals.
Furthermore, this continued insistence that our legal system should just assume that the defendent is lying in all situations is just fascism; by that standard even Mother Theresa could be convicted of rape. The defendent should NEVER be placed on a lower footing than witnesses and must always get the benefit of the doubt. Anything less than that is totalitarianism.
See why should the entire idea of sexual freedom for both sexes suffer just because there are those who cry rape?
Because if you can get drunk and fuck all night while men face a horrific threat of losing their freedom and being branded as perverts then obviously men aren't free.
You worry about getting raped, right? Well it makes even more sense for men to worry about being nifonged, because getting nifonged is many times worse than getting raped. If you get raped you get fucked for an hour; if you get nifonged you're fucked FOR LIFE. Even if you aren't convicted!
Do you honestly believe any sane man accused of rape, guilty or innocent, would ADMIT that his accuser had consumed too much alcohol, therefore unable to make a rational decision to have sex with him?
I forgot to ask -- what exactly does the issue of whether or not he would admit it have to do with what really happened? Are you saying that we should just presume the worst become some woman made a claim? That's ridiculous.
Can you imagine if lawsuits worked this way? We wouldn't have any businesses because they'd all be sued to death. "Do you really think the company would ADMIT that it was at fault?"
RM, for you and others who believe most women lie about rape, take the time to read this excerpt by an admitted rapist. During his reign of terror, he did NOT consider himself a rapist. He was just a regular guy who got his kicks out of picking up women in bars. If they objected to sex, he found a way to seduce them, while never admitting it was rape.
http://www.interactivetheatre.org/resc/jackm.html
Anon-5:30
" ... getting nifonged is many times worse than getting raped. If you get raped you get fucked for an hour; if you get nifonged you're fucked FOR LIFE. Even if you aren't convicted!"
Congrats, you've clearly described the mentality of a rapist.
Anon-5:39
"He said, she said"
Today, this phrase is NOT a part of the consciousness of anyone when reading or hearing of a rape accusation against a man. The conditioned mind responds with: "she said, so it's true" Thank you organized feminism.
"A woman would never ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever lie about rape!"
RM
"RM, for you and others who believe most women lie about rape...."
Anon-5:30 troll, quit twisting this board for your own benefit. No man here believes "most women lie about rape".
It's just that there are some real clever ones out there....
that know how to manipulate the system....
that know that feminists will blindly support them....
that know that men in power will let them off....
that know that trolls like you will post on this website with your lies....
The feminist commandment below comes directly from your own kind, not us.
"A woman would never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever lie about rape! Never ever!"
Congrats, you've clearly described the mentality of a rapist.
Anon-5:39
No, I've described the mentality of anyone who objectively evaluates the consequences of false rape accusations. Say something that makes sense. Rapists don't care about false rape accusations.
But in the mind of an irrational idiot there is, of course, no difference between true and false!
RM, for you and others who believe most women lie about rape, take the time to read this excerpt by an admitted rapist.
There is stupid, and then there is STUPID.
I'll try explaining this again so even a mental midget like you can get this: nothing this admitted rapist has to say has anything to do with how many women do or don't like about rape. Get it?
Absolutely nothing. The two have nothing to do with one another.
Just like "do you really think he'd admit it??" has nothing to do with whether or not drunk sex is or isn't rape.
Just like NOTHING YOU'VE SAID FOLLOWS LOGICALLY FROM THE EXAMPLES YOU GIVE.
Nothing the rapist said or did has any influence whatsoever over how many women lie about rape.
Do you understand what I just said to you, or should others help me explain further?
You see, innocent men who are charged with rape aren't just up again feminist hatemongering. They are also up against blind authority worship for its own sake -- "You was arrested, so you is guilty!"
And up against plain old stupid people, who confused anecdotes with statistical evidence. No matter what the motive, the default belief is that the man raped the woman, no matter how non-credible she is or what the evidence otherwise says.
Awww, look everyone, look at the little feminazi troll. She's having so much fun twisting all these posts here.
hey anon-who-gives-12-hour-time,
what are you talking about? You think you are responding to the comments, but you are not.
Have you seen the MacDowell or Kanin studies??
I rest my case.
BTW,
the term 'feminazi' IS valid, because there are indeed parallels between radical feminism and Nazism. This is according to scholars (such as Nathanson and Young), not just 'crazy MRA''
should say,
"not just "crazy MRA's""
"This is silly. If she went there to get drunk and fuck and she gets drunk and fucks then it wasn't rape, period. There is no need to get into hypotheticals"
Finally a voice of sanity (though I wouldn't totally agree with 'period' - there are bound to be extenuating circumstances in some cases.)
It is not as if the whole idea of sex doesn't come into play from the beginning of, or early in, the date. It is not as if 'drunk' has a strict definition. It is not as if statements made during a period of relative sobriety have, or should have, no implications for later behaviour. Intentions count.
People, including some of the guys in this thread, seem to think that most things concerning sex mixed with drinking are cut and dried. I'm sorry to say that even many MRA's, especially the younger ones, are to some extent still suffering from feminist brainwashing. If you knew how relatively sane things still were in the 70's and earlier surrounding this issue, you would have a more complete perspective from which to judge things.
This is how fascism works - it creeps up on us largely due to new generations of men and women being totally ignorant of how things were in the past, and the more sensible and relaxed attitudes that were the norm during those times. The problem is you cannot depend or reading history to get an understanding on these issues, because feminists have re-written and revised history. In fact, that itself is a key component of fascism.
Feminism has been a strong factor in the erosion of American civil liberties, and not just for men but also for women. Our legal system has been twisted to accomodate perjurers.
Norm: obviously if she starts trying to push the guy off or tells him to stop and he keeps going, that's a rape. But since we've discussing this as though neither of those things happened then I'm assuming that we're talking about plain old drunk sex, with the woman possibly feeling ashamed afterwards.
And that's the problem: we can't allow every college boy to be a target because some girl might either be looking for attention or for an excuse for her own promiscuity. Of course, false accusations happen for a variety of reasons. Sometimes liars just lie for the sake of lying.
the above should say, "you cannot depend ON reading history."
@anon,
"with the woman possibly feeling ashamed afterwards."
Shame/guilt feelings/regret account for about 20% of false accusations, according to the MacDowell study. Although I would tend to agree that these particular feelings come up more often in cases of drunk sex. In fact, if a woman recalls that she was drunk, and due to that consented, then that itself may be the main cause of the regret.
The problem is that we have opened the door to rape accusations being considered seriously in those cases, instead of simply realizing that in most of them, the woman had a lapse in judgment, and is thus responsible for her own behaviour.
And to add to the problem, the crime of rape has been elevated to such a dizzying high status, that most people, even MRA's, truly believe that it is the end of the world for a woman for her to have been raped. This is kind of a different issue, but studies have shown that there is no specifically defininable phenomenon as "rape trauma", i.e., something which necessarily affects the victim for life (see Moxon). This is of course not to say there's no trauma involved in rape; it would be ridiculous to say that. I am simply saying there is for the most part no 'syndrome' involved.
There is simply no way that rape is as bad as a guy getting beaten within an inch of his life and left for dead. In fact many less serious instances of assault are still more traumatic than rape. The problem is that women's natural hysteria over the issue of rape, has been tapped into by radical feminists. These radicals know good and well what they are doing, and have an intimate understanding of the psychology involved.
You worry about getting raped, right? Well it makes even more sense for men to worry about being nifonged, because getting nifonged is many times worse than getting raped. If you get raped you get fucked for an hour; if you get nifonged you're fucked FOR LIFE. Even if you aren't convicted!
I'm sorry, but this is absolutely CALLOUS! I'd understand if you yourself have been falsely accused, and I'd understand even more if you've been BOTH raped and falsely accused of rape. But if you have never experienced neither, then I don't think you're really in the position to say that one is worse than the other. I've never been raped (or falsely accused), but I'm pretty sure that the lasting effects for rape lasts more than a hour, much more.
And rape does not equal fucking, HELLO!
Rape and false accusations are both horrible. Playing the "which ones worse" game isn't going to convince anyone of anything.
Help me stay calm, sweet Jesus.
Anon claims: "Nothing the rapist said or did has any influence whatsoever over how many women lie about rape."
If you had bothered to READ the article I referenced, you would know that the excerpt in this article has "everything" to do with drunken sex, and the tactics some men use to pressure (force) women into sex. These same men are the ones who are in denial of having commited rape.
And why are you trying to convince me that a man who is beaten within an inch of his life is "worse" than the plight of a rape victim?
Both situations are extremely painful, are they not? We were not discussing which type of victimhood is worse, but for some reason, you chose to go off on that tangent.
Anon 8:50
Renee - "Rape and false accusations are both horrible. Playing the "which ones worse" game isn't going to convince anyone of anything."
Yet this is exactly what some women do. One poster at Glenn Sack's blog, Georgia Girl, has consistently tried to convince us (men) that we should not be so concerned about the harms done to men by false rape allegations because women do get raped (and this is supposedly far, far worse); and, further, men (collectively) are to blame for women getting raped because we (men collectively) haven't done enough to prevent rapes.
An instance of forcible rape can be a horrifying experience for a woman to go through. But, so is a forcible rape committed against a man wrongly sent to prison for a rape he never committed – and, unlike the female rape victims, he will have to face it over and over. So, in a way, a false rape allegation CAN end up being worse than an actual forcible rape.
[note that I prefer to differentiate between a forcible rape and other supposed rapes, such as the morning after regret sort – like the one that started this thread off]
Norm,
There is simply no way that rape is as bad as a guy getting beaten within an inch of his life and left for dead. In fact many less serious instances of assault are still more traumatic than rape. The problem is that women's natural hysteria over the issue of rape, has been tapped into by radical feminists. These radicals know good and well what they are doing, and have an intimate understanding of the psychology involved.
See I have a problem when people try to compare rape or some other crime with another. What's the point? And also, I think culture comes into play when it comes to rape. In the past and today in other countries, a woman's worth was based on her viginity or "purity". There's more to it than that, but I'll leave it there.
That last comment was late. You posted yours before I posted mine.
Renee, it is important for MRAs to compare the harm inflicted by false rape accusations with rape in order to counter the frequent feminist claims that false rape accusations don't matter and that rape is a uniquely damaging crime that is perhaps even worse than murder. Rape is a bad crime but hardly unique in the harm inflicted on the victim, and false rape accusations can cause harm that is tantamount to murder or attempted murder.
Regarding women's "purity," by fixating on rape, feminists are reclaiming this long western tradition of sanctifying women and their sexuality. Instead of worshipping chastity or motherhood (or even virgin motherhood, as in christianity) the feminists worship victimhood. The most "pure" thing any woman can be in the pseudo-religious value system of feminism is a raped woman.
This is a way of treating women as "pure" while also allowing them to engage in all of the promiscuous sex that they want. Remember: the feminists don't just talk about rape. They use rape as the model for all male/female relations.
If men are always the bad guys, then women can be both pure and promiscuous, without being tied to the home as they were throughout history, minus the past four decades.
For an example of feminists using rape as THE model for man/woman relations, remember that feminist "art" that was posted a while back.
It featured a woman saying, "I wish I was a man... so I could fuck you and take your job!"
That doesn't make sense unless you have an almost religious faith in the proposition that all interactions between men and women are akin to rape on a spiritual level.
And martyrdom has long been a part of religious tradition, and not just in the west. The faith of feminism follows lines that are very similar to other religions in many respects.
"RM, for you and others who believe most women lie about rape,"
@Anon 8:50:
"most women lie about rape"
I never said that, you did. Stop making a mockery of this website and the plight of men who have been falsely accused of rape by SOME women out there. False rape is real and is enabled by people like you.
RM
----------------------------------
"For an example of feminists using rape as THE model for man/woman relations, remember that feminist "art" that was posted a while back.
It featured a woman saying, "I wish I was a man... so I could fuck you and take your job!"
That doesn't make sense unless you have an almost religious faith in the proposition that all interactions between men and women are akin to rape on a spiritual level.
And martyrdom has long been a part of religious tradition, and not just in the west. The faith of feminism follows lines that are very similar to other religions in many respects."
-----------------------------------
Beautifully said.
RM
Guys,
These two are just trying to spin up up. Remember how jeana went away when we started ignoring her?
...
should say, "spin US up"
I would imagine that being falsely accused by a woman who has intentionally lied for whatever reason, has got to be pure hell for a man.
Even if the man is innocent and never convicted, his name is plastered everywhere and his once good reputation is permanently scarred.
I believe, as most of you here, that a false accusation can result in a lifetime of turmoil. The act in itself, however, is not a brutal attack on one's body (as is the act of rape).
Anon 10:38
But men who have been incarcerated and charged with rape can be brutalized, and innocent men can also be the targets of vigilante attacks.
Anon - "I believe, as most of you here, that a false accusation can result in a lifetime of turmoil. The act in itself, however, is not a brutal attack on one's body (as is the act of rape)."
Unless the woman catches a disease, becomes pregnant, or (in rare cases) incurs physical harm beyond that which can happen with unwanted sex, the body heals.
It's the psyche that suffers the greater harm. The attack itself is typically but a few horrible minutes. The real lasting damage is done to the victims sense of well being, the ability to trust others, and their ability to engage in relationships.
In this regard, false rape claims can very well cause every bit as great a harm as an actual forcible rape. Make no mistake about that.
Next, consider the harm to an innocent man’s reputation – even if exonerated (even if the women admits she made it up).
Plus, there are also the issues of the great financial harm done to the men. Rape victims don’t end up spending tens of thousands of dollars defending themselves. And, they don’t face being turned down for employment because of what has been done to them.
And, let’s not pretend that there are some men who actually end up imprisoned although they are innocent. They lose years of their lives, suffer irreparable harms, can suffer from repeated violent forcible rapes, and may never be able to become functional in society even after they are exonerated and released. These men WILL have it much harder than the typical female rape victim does.
The forcible rape of women, especially when aggravated by use of a deadly weapon, is truly a horrific thing to have happen. But, please, let’s not pretend a woman who wakes up with a hangover and a man who she’s certain she would not have had sex with had she not chosen to do drugs/alcohol, has suffered anything even approaching what REAL rape victims do. Only a man who they chose to accuse of raping them will have to do that.
Politically I call it rape when a man has sex and feels violated.
Politically I call it rape when a man has been accused of rape and run through the legal/prosecutorial system of due process and treated like a criminal only for it to be discovered, his victimizer and her enablers/supporters/cohorts lied.
Politically I call it rape when a man has sex with a woman and feels dissatisfied.
Anonymous - "Politically I call it rape when a man has sex with a woman and feels dissatisfied."
I'm guessing (hoping) that this is just a bit of humor your interjecting.
If not, please, let's try not to descend to the same level as feminists.
Too many guys are waking up from a night of hot sex with a woman who WAS hot-to-trot, only to find out that, in the light of sobriety, she decides he's just some beta in her eyes, she's therefor NOT satisfied with what has happened (multiple orgasms not withstanding), and she's going to claim he raped her in order to save her reputation as a hot party chick who only bangs alphas.
I was being humorous Mocking Catherine McKinnon.
Regarding women's "purity," by fixating on rape, feminists are reclaiming this long western tradition of sanctifying women and their sexuality.
I don't see this as sanctifying anything. I think the real reason that feminists are concerned about rape is because of it's cultural history along with how victims and the crime itself have been and are viewed/treated in our culture. I don't think they are really fixating on it. But I do think that society itself puts rape in a kind of separate category.
Instead of worshipping chastity or motherhood (or even virgin motherhood, as in christianity) the feminists worship victimhood. The most "pure" thing any woman can be in the pseudo-religious value system of feminism is a raped woman.
That's interesting considering how many of the feminists I've encountered aren't religious or believe in God. Nor do they believe in "purity" (I don't in a bodily sense and I'm a Christian). So the idea of a raped woman as "pure" is ridiculous. And considering what worship is in the Biblical sense, I highly doubt that feminists "worship" victimhood.
Another thing, were you serious about worshipping chasity and motherhood?
This is a way of treating women as "pure" while also allowing them to engage in all of the promiscuous sex that they want. Remember: the feminists don't just talk about rape. They use rape as the model for all male/female relations.
Feminists don't treat men or women as "pure". From my understanding and from what I've seen, they can't stand the idea due to connections with control, fear, myths, and negative attitudes over women's sexuality and how women and girls were valued based on their "purity". There's more to it than that by the way but I wanted to keep it short.
As for the sex, it's not about "allowing" them anything (as if they or anyone should have control over a person's sexual lifestlye - unless you're a parent of a child or teen). It's the fact that a women shouldn't be looked down upon for engaging in casual sex or sex period while a guy who does the same is not. It's also about encouraging women to be open about their sexuality, or something like that.
They use rape as the model for all male/female relations....
I just can't see how rape is being used as a model for male/female relations. I don't think the belief of one or two radical feminists represents the entirety of feminism. I also don't think that the art in question should represent feminism mainly because I don't really consider it feminist, only the opinions of one young woman.
One more thing, do you think that women should be...tied...to the home?
"One more thing, do you think that women should be...tied...to the home?"
Get out of here.
What, it's an honest question.
Hey, you or another person probably didn't mean anything by it. I'm just curious.
I really think that we should have a numbering system when it comes to all these Anonymouses...like Anonymous #1, #2, etc., etc.
Renee, good point about how the anonymous posts get confusing. Here's what I did: I added a date stampt -- so we can identify the anonymous poster by the time of their post.
"What, it's an honest question."
BS. It's an attempt on your part to mock this site and the men who have been victimized by the system here. You are a troll and do not and never have supported our struggle for justice, respect, and healing.
"Hey, you or another person probably didn't mean anything by it. I'm just curious."
Quit writing your book on what you think we are all about and using this website as your "study guide" We are people not animals in a zoo.
Get out of here.
Anonymous#4962756832
One of the major problems we have at this site is that some feminists want to recharacterize what we are. They've pegged us a rape "denialists" when that is utter nonsense. We make no pretense about covering the entire rape story -- there are innumerable resources for actual rape victims. Unfortunately, many or most of those deny the existence or extent of false rape claims and that's why we're here.
Here's MY bottom line: I'm more than willing to live with the truth about the prevalence of rape and false rape claims. If Feministing or some other similar site would only admit the truth, I'd be their biggest supporter.
For anybody who thinks we're a bunch of extreme wackos here -- let me tell you, I've been spending time reading the recent law review articles on this subject, and in the very recent past we now see a bunch of law profs. who are not just on board with us, some go way beyond the things we say here. This is a new phenomenon, and quite unexpected. The fact is, we're pretty middle-of-the-road at this site and might have to ratchet it up a bit. The radical feminists are truly the wackos on this issue.
I just can't see how rape is being used as a model for male/female relations. I don't think the belief of one or two radical feminists represents the entirety of feminism. I also don't think that the art in question should represent feminism mainly because I don't really consider it feminist, only the opinions of one young woman.
One more thing, do you think that women should be...tied...to the home?
* * * *
"Tied to the home," no. Encouraged to stay home when they have young children, yes. Encouraged (through social norms and non-coercive incentives) to remain married and not attempt to be both a mother and father to their children, yes.
The feminists who shout "get back in the kitchen!" as a way of mocking traditional values and housewives are full of it. They are referring to a time in our history when housework was much more time-consuming than it is now. Obviously we are never going to return to the days before modern appliances, when women spent a lot of time on housework not out of unfairness but simply because of economic necessity.
Feminists have never explained how single mothers are supposed to support their kids while simultaneously fulfilling the roles of father and mother, which are vitally important for the development of kids. It is well known that children from two-parent households are much better off, so how do the feminists justify our high divorce rate? And two-thirds of divorces are filed by women, so this isn't explainable in terms of male abandonment, which is another anti-male stereotype.
But to recap, no, women shouldn't be tied to the home or otherwise barred from employment. Not that women even have to marry or have kids at all.
Concerning rape being used as the feminist model of male/female relations, just look at the ridiculously bloated statistics they offer, ranging from 1 in 4 women being raped to 98% of rape accusations being true, etc. Then read feminist articles. With them it's all rape, all the time. It isn't just a handful of prominent feminists saying that all hetero sex is rape.
To these women, the word "rape" is like "abracadabra." They use it and people stop arguing with them because nobody wants to appear to be pro-rape. If rape were to be completely eliminated tomorrow the feminists would have almost nothing left to talk about.
Pierce Harlan - "They've pegged us a rape "denialists" when that is utter nonsense. "
A problem along this line which cropped-up earlier in this thread is the differences in defining just who is a rapist.
To my mind, a rapist is some who knowingly sexually violates another person against that persons will. This stand in contrast to the moderate feminist opinion that a rapist is anyone who does get (some, as of yet not fully defined) definite consent for sexual activity. Or, who fails to perform complete drug and alcohol intoxication testing so as to be absolutely certain that their partners choices to have sex are not clouded by such.
To a greater extent, my understanding of what constitutes a rapist clashes with the more radical feminist idea that any MAN whom any women claims to be a rapist, is, in fact, a rapist on her say-so alone.
We see these two feminist ideas come into play as they complain that men who used aggressive tactics (which most other men would not condone as a proper way to treat another person) to persuade women to have sex, do not wish to cooperate and declare themselves to be rapists.
Even if we agree their approaches were questionable (at best) they never-the-less convinced their partners to agree to sex, although perhaps reluctantly.
Such men may be despicable human beings (I would certainly agree), but they DO NOT meet my standard for what makes on a rapist. Unless the women express that she does not wish to engage in sex, and if she's willing engaged in what could be considered the normal lead-up to sex, a man who fails to recognize her unexpressed reluctance (or, even ignores the "signs" of such), simply isn't a rapist. He's just an *asshole, who she made the mistake of being with.
Plenty of men get taken advantage of by women in other ways (typically financially), yet enjoy no legal recourse due to the fact they they acted of their own free will. Any reluctance they may have felt in doing so counts for not.
And, I'd add (for the possible education of trolls) that plenty of men end up regretting having had sex with particular women. Not only do men NOT have the recourse of crying rape, the vast majority of man are, well, MAN ENOUGH to accept THEIR mistakes, and move on.
To quote Prof. Henry Higgins, "Why can't a women be more like a man?"
Seriously, why can't they?
Rape means he TOOK it -- through violence or threat of violence.
Or that she insisted that he stop but he kept going anyway.
Anonymous#4962756832,
BS. It's an attempt on your part to mock this site and the men who have been victimized by the system here. You are a troll and do not and never have supported our struggle for justice, respect, and healing.
BS, it's not and what you said is not true. As if that matters to you.
Quit writing your book on what you think we are all about and using this website as your "study guide" We are people not animals in a zoo.
Oh PLEASE! I was just acknowledging that the person may not mean anything by it. GET A GRIP!
"Tied to the home," no. Encouraged to stay home when they have young children, yes. Encouraged (through social norms and non-coercive incentives) to remain married and not attempt to be both a mother and father to their children, yes.
But to recap, no, women shouldn't be tied to the home or otherwise barred from employment. Not that women even have to marry or have kids at all.
Ok. Thank you for answering. To me it's about choice. If a woman WANTS to be a stay-at-home-mom, fine. But there are women who don't want to be identified as only wives and/or mothers. They want a chance to use their talents or explore their interests too. But I agree that if a woman has small children then she should try to spend time at home...if economically possible.
I'm also all for remaining married...depending on the situation.
And what about single fathers?
Feminists have never explained how single mothers are supposed to support their kids while simultaneously fulfilling the roles of father and mother, which are vitally important for the development of kids. It is well known that children from two-parent households are much better off, so how do the feminists justify our high divorce rate? And two-thirds of divorces are filed by women, so this isn't explainable in terms of male abandonment, which is another anti-male stereotype.
Why should feminists be responsible in explaining any of this? Maybe it's obvious to you, but I'm at a loss. And about male abandonment, I don't see it as an anti-male stereotype. It's a reality for some families. There is a problem of some fathers not stepping up to the plate and I'm not just talking about child-support.
Why should feminists be responsible in explaining any of this?
LOL! Because they're the ones who have promoted and normalized these conditions, including the expectation that woman are supposed to be supermoms minus a Clark Kent.
Keep in mind that the feminists haven't just promoted careerism as THE life path of women, but have also villified the women who choose to be housewives. In their mindset the most degrading thing a woman can possibly do is make dinner for her family, and I have even seen feminists compare being a housewife to slavery.
Yes, they are responsible fo they shit.
Anonymous - ”Or that she insisted that he stop but he kept going anyway.”
Okay, here you’re starting to wade into the crap.
I assume you are referring to the case of Maouloud Baby here? The then 1 yr-old boy who took five seconds to stop – and went to prison for five years because it took him five seconds to stop?
Now, I agree that when a woman says “stop” (and does so in no uncertain terms) the man is obliged to stop. But, I do not agree that his failure to stop amounts to rape. He would be guilty of unwanted sexual contact – also a crime itself, but a lesser crime than rape.
He did not force her to begin having sex (which what should be necessary for it to be considered rape), but he then continued in manner that was unwanted by her.
Only a heartless, thoughtless man-hating feminist would think that some guy not being able to stop within five seconds equates to the same thing as holding the woman down, ripping off her close, and forcing himself upon her – a warrants that a young man do time in prison for it.
I take it that you may well be such a heartless, thoughtless man-hating feminist – since you seem to think that very way?
"...case of Maouloud Baby here? The then 1 yr-old boy...
Obviously, he was not 1 yr-old, he was 15.
please excuse my mistyping
@Anonymous Sep 7, 2009 2:31:00 PM
I assume you are the same person who posted the link to the "Jack M." bit?
The one wherein the author admits to having been a rapist, that you then used as an example of men not being willing to see themselves as rapists (still not sure you you figured a man admitting to something works as an example of a man not doing that, BTW).
Well, having read "Jack's" confession, the language "he" uses suggests that this bit was written be a feminist woman, not a man. The "...the power to rape..." line is a dead give-away.
Slwerner,
This stand in contrast to the moderate feminist opinion that a rapist is anyone who does get (some, as of yet not fully defined) definite consent for sexual activity.
Wait what??? You're probably being sarcastic here, but anyway. Ummm, to me, a rapist is someone who DOESN'T get consent for sexual activity. Now I know you all talk about the activity that leads to sex, but to me what really counts is THAT moment - whether a person wants to have sex at that exact moment. If not, then don't proceed, easy as that (at least to me).
Or, who fails to perform complete drug and alcohol intoxication testing so as to be absolutely certain that their partners choices to have sex are not clouded by such.
Well, to me...just don't have sex with a drunk person. But if you BOTH are drunk, well.....
Unless the women express that she does not wish to engage in sex, and if she's willing engaged in what could be considered the normal lead-up to sex, a man who fails to recognize her unexpressed reluctance (or, even ignores the "signs" of such), simply isn't a rapist. He's just an *asshole, who she made the mistake of being with.
Well what constitutes as "failing to recognize her relutance"? If he's basically forcing her, then that's a problem.
Some people respond to rape as a person responding to getting robbed. If a victim of robbery gives the person his/her belongings out of fear, aren't they still robbed?
And about unexpressed reluctance. I don't see how anyone can have sex with someone that doesn't respond...who's just frozen beneath you, unless they get a power trip from it.
And think about it...anything can be considered as leading up to sex, even kissing.
And, I'd add (for the possible education of trolls) that plenty of men end up regretting having had sex with particular women. Not only do men NOT have the recourse of crying rape, the vast majority of man are, well, MAN ENOUGH to accept THEIR mistakes, and move on.
I agree. But I think that culture and perhaps conditioning may come into play here. Guys are taught that they are SUPPOSED and EXPECTED to enjoy sex period.
And about accepting mistakes. You can acknowledge that there was some things you could have done differently, but that doesn't change the fact that someone choose to rape you, nor does it excuse it.
However, I see what you're saying, and that you're not talking about actual rape.
To quote Prof. Henry Higgins, "Why can't a women be more like a man?"
Seriously, why can't they?
Funny, I constantly see over the net (and here a few times) men complaining how women try to "act like men" or that they're biologically equal.
Hopefully all that made sense. I feel that the longer my post is, the easier it is for me to jumble my thoughts.
"Norm: obviously if she starts trying to push the guy off or tells him to stop and he keeps going, that's a rape. But since we've discussing this as though neither of those things happened then I'm assuming that we're talking about plain old drunk sex, with the woman possibly feeling ashamed afterwards."
No. If he forces his penis into her vagina while she is saying "No" and struggling to stop herself from being penetrated THAT is rape.
That's the problem with these feminists and their ever expanding definitions of rape. They don't know where to draw the line, and it makes it harder to take a woman seriously who says she has been raped.Talking a woman into sex is NOT rape. Putting a knife to her throat and demanding sex from her is rape.
If a man and woman are both drunk and both engage in consensual sex,it is NOT rape. If it IS rape, then BOTH are guilty of rape,not just the man.
"Rape means he TOOK it -- through violence or threat of violence."
Precisely. Anything less is NOT rape. Quit equating the suffering of those who were violently raped by weapon-wielding psychopaths with being "pressured to have sex", the two aren't even in the same neighborhood.
Renee - "
Some people respond to rape as a person responding to getting robbed. If a victim of robbery gives the person his/her belongings out of fear, aren't they still robbed?"
In the eyes of the law, they have NOT been robbed. The person who acted threatening towards them was certainly an *sshole (just as I described pushy men as), but eh strict definition of theft is not met. No conviction will be possible.
And, when we're talking about branding a man as a rapist (way, way, way more damning than being labeled a thief), we need to have a much higher standard/threshold to be met.
A woman may sincerely believe that she felt threatened into agreeing to sex, while the man may sincerely feel that he did not threaten her in any way.
Years in prison and the dreaded label of rapist ARE NOT just punishment for a woman being made to feel uncomfortable. If she didn't specifically say no, or act to push him away, she cannot reasonably expect that he will understand things that same way she does.
MEN'S REALITY QUIZ
Q: What is the one thing that is always more important than any session of boinking?
A: Your liberty.
Think about that.
Don't tell men what to do. We have every right to have sex without having to fear false accusations. We will not tolerate being second class citizens as women are enabled to behave in any way they please.
Years in prison and the dreaded label of rapist ARE NOT just punishment for a woman being made to feel uncomfortable"
"That's the problem with these feminists and their ever expanding definitions of rape. They don't know where to draw the line"
I plucked these two statements out of different posts because I think they are related. First, I believe that feminists know that there is a line in there to be drawn somewhere - but their entire agenda is to completely erase it.
The reason I believe this is the case is because "feminism" is very literally FEMININE-ism, and the goal is to enshrine female values with the power of law. So, I think your first point is true from the male perspective, but the goal of feminists is to erase and destroy that perspective - so making it to them is something of a waste of time.
It is always amazing to me how the shell game never seems to wear out. There are plenty of examples of plain out and out lies here, which are clearly and unambigously "false accusations", yet the conversation always gets drawn onto the murky ground of "consent" and those vague situations in which two people each have a perspective operating which is quite different from the other's perspective. Feminists have established feminist jurisprudence which dictates that the man's perspective is ignored and deleted and the woman's perspective sends him to jail.
At the core, the issue of "consent" itself is a red herring. It perpetuates the old Victorian myth of female purity (I got your reference there, slwerner, even if the trolls didn't) while at the same time upping the demands on men in the mating dance so they will try ever harder to secure this holy grail of "consent."
The biggest part of the problem is the mystical way in which a lot of people regard sex. I have seen women use far more coercive techniques that what the women have described here to manipulate, harass, and browbeat men into doing anything from buying a puppy to, visiting her nutsy family, to taking on a bigger mortgage than they can afford. (See the current buzz about the commercial "Suzanne researched this.")
But, let sex enter the picture, and everything changes - it is truly mystical in its power to make a topic explosive. Someone above made a comment about regarding this like theft - we could turn it around and say that if we treated theft like the way we do sexual issues, there would be no distinction between panhandling, 3-card Monty, and armed robbery - they would all be felonies.
The female (FEMININE-ist) double-standard is that everything women do is reasonable and justified, and everything men do is vile and perverse - even when they are exactly the same things. Thus, you will never get female understanding of the issues from a woman until she has had one of the men in her life - perhaps a son - destroyed. Then and only then will the female denial system weaken locally.
The sad paradox for women is that despite the fact that they spend billion$ and BILLION$ on clothing, cosmetics, botox, cosmetic surgery and fake boobs in order to attract male attention, they are working just as diligently on the other side to criminalize as many men as possible for giving it to them. Thus you end up with the situation of a lot of younger women these days who have plenty of PUAs hitting on them, but very few decent men with long term potential.
The other problem for women is that the whole concept of "rayyype" has become so watered down by these creeping definitions, that even though the word still has the connotations of geing forcibly taken advantage of, it now really means that the woman started having intercourse willingly but "withdrew her consent" and it took the guy too many seconds to quit.
That's what rape is these days. And, I suppose the only reasonable feeling to have toward nitwits who are so weak that they are traumatized for life by that experience, is pity.
@Arch,
"Norm and slwerner -- I'd seriously like both of you on our team"
Yes, thanks; I intend to do that but am currently trying to get settled in as a recent new administator on another MR site. Give me a couple or three months.
@Anon,
"No. If he forces his penis into her vagina..."
I was quoting someone else in that part of my post.
@Pierce,
"plenty of men end up regretting having had sex with particular women..."
yes, quite so. Just never let the woman know that, or she might cry 'rape' out of embarassment!
Don't tell men what to do. We have every right to have sex without having to fear false accusations.
True. I said the same thing about women in regards to drinking and rape. Like what you guys do, I'm just pointing out percautions.
The biggest part of the problem is the mystical way in which a lot of people regard sex.
But, let sex enter the picture, and everything changes - it is truly mystical in its power to make a topic explosive. Someone above made a comment about regarding this like theft - we could turn it around and say that if we treated theft like the way we do sexual issues, there would be no distinction between panhandling, 3-card Monty, and armed robbery - they would all be felonies.
EXACTLY RIGHT. Rape is a MYSICAL concept, the means by which feminists transfer religious values such as martyrdom and purity into a shiny new secular format. By focusing on rape, these women promote a worldview in which the entire universe revolves around their vaginas, and even the truth is less important than "sensitivity."
Anonymous said...
" If rape were to be completely eliminated tomorrow the feminists would have almost nothing left to talk about"
Trust me, they'd find or invent something.
Anonymous said...
Rape means he TOOK it -- through violence or threat of violence.
Of course violence means whatever feminists want to say it is. A man talking loudly, a man giving a woman an angry glance, a man expresssing frustration with a woman, ect. It is basically anything that offends her or makes her feel uncomfortable or threatened ( as if woman don't do these things to men).
http://www.lectlaw.com/files/fam27.htm
True. Violence to them is pretty much any time a man says anything even remotely negative or critical about women.
Anonymous said...
"If a man and woman are both drunk and both engage in consensual sex,it is NOT rape. If it IS rape, then BOTH are guilty of rape,not just the man."
good point
slwerner said...
Renee - "
Some people respond to rape as a person responding to getting robbed. If a victim of robbery gives the person his/her belongings out of fear, aren't they still robbed?"
In the eyes of the law, they have NOT been robbed. The person who acted threatening towards them was certainly an *sshole (just as I described pushy men as), but eh strict definition of theft is not met. No conviction will be possible.
And, when we're talking about branding a man as a rapist (way, way, way more damning than being labeled a thief), we need to have a much higher standard/threshold to be met.
A woman may sincerely believe that she felt threatened into agreeing to sex, while the man may sincerely feel that he did not threaten her in any way.
Years in prison and the dreaded label of rapist ARE NOT just punishment for a woman being made to feel uncomfortable. If she didn't specifically say no, or act to push him away, she cannot reasonably expect that he will understand things that same way she does.
Sep 7, 2009 5:20:00 PM
HIGH FIVE!
Anonymous said...
Years in prison and the dreaded label of rapist ARE NOT just punishment for a woman being made to feel uncomfortable"
"That's the problem with these feminists and their ever expanding definitions of rape. They don't know where to draw the line"
I plucked these two statements out of different posts because I think they are related. First, I believe that feminists know that there is a line in there to be drawn somewhere - but their entire agenda is to completely erase it.
The reason I believe this is the case is because "feminism" is very literally FEMININE-ism, and the goal is to enshrine female values with the power of law. So, I think your first point is true from the male perspective, but the goal of feminists is to erase and destroy that perspective - so making it to them is something of a waste of time.
It is always amazing to me how the shell game never seems to wear out. There are plenty of examples of plain out and out lies here, which are clearly and unambigously "false accusations", yet the conversation always gets drawn onto the murky ground of "consent" and those vague situations in which two people each have a perspective operating which is quite different from the other's perspective. Feminists have established feminist jurisprudence which dictates that the man's perspective is ignored and deleted and the woman's perspective sends him to jail.
At the core, the issue of "consent" itself is a red herring. It perpetuates the old Victorian myth of female purity (I got your reference there, slwerner, even if the trolls didn't) while at the same time upping the demands on men in the mating dance so they will try ever harder to secure this holy grail of "consent."
The biggest part of the problem is the mystical way in which a lot of people regard sex. I have seen women use far more coercive techniques that what the women have described here to manipulate, harass, and browbeat men into doing anything from buying a puppy to, visiting her nutsy family, to taking on a bigger mortgage than they can afford. (See the current buzz about the commercial "Suzanne researched this.")
But, let sex enter the picture, and everything changes - it is truly mystical in its power to make a topic explosive. Someone above made a comment about regarding this like theft - we could turn it around and say that if we treated theft like the way we do sexual issues, there would be no distinction between panhandling, 3-card Monty, and armed robbery - they would all be felonies.
The female (FEMININE-ist) double-standard is that everything women do is reasonable and justified, and everything men do is vile and perverse - even when they are exactly the same things. Thus, you will never get female understanding of the issues from a woman until she has had one of the men in her life - perhaps a son - destroyed. Then and only then will the female denial system weaken locally.
The sad paradox for women is that despite the fact that they spend billion$ and BILLION$ on clothing, cosmetics, botox, cosmetic surgery and fake boobs in order to attract male attention, they are working just as diligently on the other side to criminalize as many men as possible for giving it to them. Thus you end up with the situation of a lot of younger women these days who have plenty of PUAs hitting on them, but very few decent men with long term potential.
The other problem for women is that the whole concept of "rayyype" has become so watered down by these creeping definitions, that even though the word still has the connotations of geing forcibly taken advantage of, it now really means that the woman started having intercourse willingly but "withdrew her consent" and it took the guy too many seconds to quit.
That's what rape is these days. And, I suppose the only reasonable feeling to have toward nitwits who are so weak that they are traumatized for life by that experience, is pity.
Sep 7, 2009 10:20:00 PM
Very well put, excellent post
Norm said...
@Pierce,
"plenty of men end up regretting having had sex with particular women..."
yes, quite so. Just never let the woman know that, or she might cry 'rape' out of embarassment!
or she will degrade the man by insulting his genitalia,his sexuality or, anything else she can think of.
Anonymous said...
"in which the entire universe revolves around their vaginas, and even the truth is less important than "sensitivity."
Sep 7, 2009 11:38:00 PM
Have you ever seen the movie "fried green tomatoes"?
There is a scene in the movie where a feminist has women gathered in her living room and instructs them to remove their underpants and squat over a mirror to examine the "summation of their power".
I kind of get the idea that the only time sex is "authorized" is when it is on the woman's terms only. The man and how/what he feels is totally irrelevant. It's all about how she feels and what she wants. The man is virtually seen as a walking dildo obligated by law, to meet her whims. It's like it doesn't matter if he wants sex.it matters if she wants sex. If he hets mad or expresses any form of being upset or frustrated or, he tries to talk her into having sex, it is an act of violence.
"Don't tell men what to do. We have every right to have sex without having to fear false accusations. We will not tolerate being second class citizens as women are enabled to behave in any way they please."
LOL! Telling men what to do. LOL!
MEN'S REALITY QUIZ
Q: What is the one thing that is always more important than any session of boinking?
A: Your liberty.
The point stays.
And a good point too. You know, the truth always brings out the feminist trolls who silently hang out here. ;)
Boinking is a part of "your liberty." You are the one who is rationalizing depriving innocent men of their freedom.
"Don't tell men what to do. We have every right to have sex without having to fear false accusations. We will not tolerate being second class citizens as women are enabled to behave in any way they please."
LOL! Telling men what to do. LOL!
I'm confused... maybe you could explain yourself better than LOL! followed by LOL!
"Boinking is a part of "your liberty." You are the one who is rationalizing depriving innocent men of their freedom."
Twisting posts is a part of your liberty. You are the one who is rationalizing possible risks to innocent men of their freedom.
"....maybe you could explain yourself better than LOL! followed by LOL!"
What part of LAUGHING OUT LOUD do you not understand?
"Don't tell men what to do"
I'm not, but it seems that you are. Warning men of possible risks isn't telling men what to do.
"We have every right to have sex without having to fear false accusations"
Well congratulations! You know, I feel the same way too. What do you think this website and the grass roots anti-false rape movement is all about?
"We will not tolerate being second class citizens as women are enabled to behave in any way they please"
Yeah, I agree. When the legal system treats false rape as a woman's liberty, men are certainly treated a second class citizens.
I kind of get the idea that the only time sex is "authorized" is when it is on the woman's terms only. The man and how/what he feels is totally irrelevant. It's all about how she feels and what she wants....It's like it doesn't matter if he wants sex.it matters if she wants sex.
Well why would any guy want to have sex with someone who doesn't? It's not about putting a woman's feelings above a guy's or having the guy's feelings as irrevelant. It's about common decency. Why MAKE/FORCE/PRESSURE/etc. someone to have sex with you if they don't want to. Why is that so hard to understand? It goes both ways.
The man is virtually seen as a walking dildo obligated by law, to meet her whims.
I'm sorry, but I don't see it this way at all. In fact it sounds pretty dramatic. There are plenty of women who feel that at times they are walking vaginas or reduced to p***y.
If he hets mad or expresses any form of being upset or frustrated or, he tries to talk her into having sex, it is an act of violence.
NO. If he FORCES her to have sex, then yes that is an act of violence. Hey, everyone free to express frustration or being upset if they don't get any (but it's one thing for a spouse to be denied sex constantly - it's another if your boy/girlfriend to dump you if you don't want to have sex). And no crime is committed if he pressures her to have sex, no matter how much of a jerk move it is. Just don't bring it to the next level and physically force them to have sex.
"I kind of get the idea that the only time sex is "authorized" is when it is on the woman's terms only. The man and how/what he feels is totally irrelevant. It's all about how she feels and what she wants. The man is virtually seen as a walking dildo obligated by law, to meet her whims. It's like it doesn't matter if he wants sex.it matters if she wants sex. If he hets mad or expresses any form of being upset or frustrated or, he tries to talk her into having sex, it is an act of violence."
yes, I couldn't have said it better myself. Combined with the risk of false accusations, it is not even worth it to date a woman these days, leave alone get married.
Lately I just mostly sit at home and hibernate. One benifit of that is you save a lot of money. A woman is like a money pit, and when you run out of money they bag ass.
Wonderful post, Norm. I'd like to add a few points.
"All heterosexual intercourse is rape."
True? No.
Women own sex with men. It's been bought and paid for through decades of feminism and unfortunately real rape. Because of our laws and mindset today, women can change their mind at any time and call sex what they want. The consensual sex on Saturday night can become rape on Monday morning, or next week, or next month, or next year. It's up to her. It happens all the time. There are centers that will accept and store bodily fluid samples for an indefinite period of time without calling police. The woman (victim) is totally in control. You hear the term 'safe sex' all the time in the media, but really it's a misnomer. False rape is a choice women can make at any time for any reason. Let's try that militant feminist phrase above again only this time let's correct it.
"All heterosexual intercourse CAN BECOME rape."
True? Yes.
asexuality anyone? I'm there.
"All heterosexual intercourse is rape."
True? No.
Depends on what the meaning of "is" is.
In the eyes of the law, any act of sex "is" "rape" if the woman says it is (is). Remember, that a woman always has the right to change her mind.
Catherine MacKinnon's legal approach was to ensrhine women's ability to define the terms into law. Unlike women's minds, the law is much more difficult to change.
The whole purpose was to drive men and women apart, and I would say that it is working. Every act of sex is an unindicted felony committed by a man which can come back to haunt him anytime during the rest of his life. Any friendly "hello" or initiation of social contact which could lead to a relationship is "sexual harassment" if the woman decides it is so.
asexuality anyone? I'm there.
I think for some that may be the case, but for a lot of men it is simply that women have made themselves so aversive that even a strong sexual drive cannot overcome how distasteful and unpleasant they are - kind of like the person who is allergic to some food they love -- they still like the taste of it, but it makes them so sick that they choose to refrain.
Excellent! Beautiful post. I'm glad to see that are others who realize that heterosexuality for men is no longer free. As long as our liberty is continually threatened, it is best to refrain from all sexual contact with women.
MENS REALITY QUIZ #2
Q: Why would any woman knowingly falsify a rape?
A: Because she can.
I was 27 in 1989 when I was falsely accused of rape. My prior sexual experience was clumsy at best, and my girlfriend at the time was even greener. She accused me of rape and I was interrogated by the police. That's as far as it went, thankfully. I am 47 now and refuse to get close or near to women. I have higher education but prefer warehouse and distribution jobs where there are fewer women. I make sure I am never alone in a room with a woman, or near any children for that matter, even if they are relatives. I stay away from untended or poorly monitored areas of shopping centers or public spaces, especially stores and shops filled with women. Curbing my sexual desire hasn't been that difficult; I have thrown my energy into work and have amassed a small fortune and live on an attractive property in a home of my own creation. When I die, everything will go to a specific charity I have selected that will not benefit women.
There really is something that must be done, my husbands was falsely accused of sexual harassment he lost his life long career is family was affected and we are all still paying for a womans lie, It went to court and they paid to settle out of court and they did fire her. My husband didnt get his job back and it was just a horrible lesson that lies do. I feel bad for any man or woman is accused of a crime they didnt commit. I believe restitution or punishment fitting the crime of liar should be paid. The worse thing is that this cry wolf has a big effect on serious crime. Many times the most serious injured or raped never go for help press charges. It makes you wonder as a woman how this can go on.
I don't see it a man or woman problem but a social problem
From being involved in the legal system, and seeing the process that these women to go through made me wonder why a woman would falsely accuse a man of rape. i and my friends have had sexual assaults that were real, and the treatment that women get from the justice system is not what alot of you think. women arent pitied,they are told they are liars even with bruises and welts on their genitals. many are told their case cant even go to trial, because their cases could be looked at as "rough sex". The women who actually do get raped, and then go to trial say that they ar just as victimized by the court system than their actual rape for the questioning of their past sexual history, questioning their judgement, and telling them they were the cause of their rape. Our legal system is still very patriarchal, founded on laws that suit men. statistics arent reliable cause many rapes dont even go to trial. It is obvious that men have used rape as a tool for oppression against women and continue to do so. Because of under-reporting, rape against women in the U.S. is more likely to be 3 in 4 women in a lifetime rather than the 1 in 6 statistic. This is disturbing, as it should be. Men have the problem of not being believed if they are raped, or taken seriously. this is also disturbing, though it is obvious that this happens less than rapes against women (with mens history). I think the shift of focus needs to be less on the problems caused for men by false rape accusations and more focus placed on the need to help women and children who are raped in the U.S. If the stats are true, than we have a prob. on our hands, and this should not be about degrading each gender, since boys and men are affected by DV how about being angry that there is still no solution or detterent for these heinous crimes against people?
Anon at 8:22: your comment violates our comment policy, but I am allowing it to illustrate good old feminist bullshit. Kindly don't tell us that courts disregard the rape shield laws. If anything, they apply them too strictly. And 3 out of 4? What are you smoking that elicits such stardust feminist wishfulness.
Men who rape are crazy they need to be punish reaD more http://jamtechnews.blogspot.com/2012/10/why-do-men-rape.html
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