While we are certainly on board with reducing the number of rapes that occur, shouldn't any rational discussion on the subject also include talk about what isn't rape, and that if a woman files a false allegations, the repercussions will be serious?
Comments will be interspersed.
Attorney general stresses rape prevention
The voices of sorority sisters filled Forum Hall Wednesday night to discuss a serious topic.
Members of the Kappa Delta sorority were the primary attendants of the public presentation, sponsored by the Kansas Attorney General’s office, Kansas law enforcement, the K-State Women’s Center and Wildcats Against Rape to educate the public on sexual assault.
“We decided to come here as a sorority to learn how to be safer and just promote unity with in the sorority,” said Krista Bennett, junior in psychology and Spanish.
Kappa Delta attended the event instead of conducting their chapter meeting last night.
Kansas Attorney General Steve Six spoke about the current investigation on 13 serial rape cases in the Manhattan and Lawrence areas. Six also spoke at a similar event on the University of Kansas’s campus earlier Wednesday morning.
“What you can do is concentrate on personal safety,” Six said.
Wait a minute! Isn't this generally referred to as "victim blaming"? Women shouldn't have to take responsibility for NOT putting themselves in dangerous positions, innocent men alone need to step up and take responsibility for preventing rape, right?
Six said the Attorney General’s Office, Kansas Bureau of Investigation and other branches of Kansas law enforcement were seriously looking into these cases because of the similarities of the crimes in their investigations, which lead them to believe the cases are related.
“We are really concerned about these 13 attacks and I can tell you that law enforcement is working hard on these cases,” Six said.
But wait a minute! We constantly hear from the "rape industry" that law enforcement doesn't take rape seriously. Please, please, please don't tell me they weren't telling us the truth!
Six also said eight of these cases occurred in Manhattan; the other five were reported in Lawrence.
“My concern is we have students who are away from home, some of them for the first time, and we need to do all we can to educate them about their personal safety,” said Six.
My concern is that the parents didn't bother to address this, and that the state feels that they should step in to fill that role. Why not encourage parents to teach their kids not to get drunk with people they don't know, have no designated person who remains sober that can watch out for the others, or to acually obey the drinking age law we have in this country. Or is it too much to actually expect parents to parent?
Also presenting at the event were Mary Todd, director of the K-State Women’s Center, and Brian Swearinger of the Riley County Police Department.
Anyone from the K-State Men's Center present? What? There is no Men's Center?
Swearinger told the audience the best way to stay safe was to follow the acronym S.A.F.E.: Secure, Avoid, Flee, Engage.
Swearinger hit on topics of social networking safety, checking locks on doors and windows, reporting suspicious activities, drawing attention to oneself and ways to engage an assailant.
And yet not a single mention of the number 1 factor in these types of situations. Drinking.
“If you are going to go for the groin, don’t just kick at it through it,” Swearinger said. “Try to kick it to the moon.”
Swearinger also said it is important for victims of any crime to report it to the proper authorities.
“We won’t know that it’s happened unless they bring it to our attention,” he said.
This is what disproves the underreporting stats that everyone likes to trot out. If they won't know it happened if it isn't reported, and since their polling has proven to be so politicized that it is unreliable, then any stats on underreporting are pure guesswork, and can't be considered even remotely accurate.
After his presentation, Swearinger fielded several questions about assault and self-defense.
Todd wrapped up the evening by asking some questions and encouraging the audience to participate. Following that, she screened a 6-minute interview conducted by clinical psychologist David Lisak on the psychology of rape.
Todd then opened the floor to questions and took some time to share information on the various resources the Women’s Center had to offer students and faculty.
Todd said she believes all rapists are serial rapists.
“Every year women give up more freedoms and crimes continue,” Todd said.
I would be curious as to what freedoms women have given up? It is because young women and men are drinking and engaging in sex play more than ever -- exercising their freedoms -- that they have put themselves in harm's way. Especially the men.
Link:
http://www.kstatecollegian.com/news/attorney-general-stresses-rape-prevention-1.1872806
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62 comments:
Todd obviously isn't an expert in anything except hyberbole, because #1, men are losing their rights, not women, and #2, the vast majority of convicted rapists who go back to prison do not go back because they've committed another rape. As usual a pathetic liar gets up there and flaps her lips and gets away with it.
And the recidivism rate for men convicted of "date rape" is extremely low -- probably because so many innocent men are convicted of that crime.
consensual
abstinent
platonic
anger
revenge
attention
extortion
mental illness
anonymity
no charges will be filed
-----------------------------------
Welcome to the world of false rape.
"“Every year women give up more freedoms and crimes continue,” Todd said."
WTF!?!?
We're talking about the USA, here on Earth, aren't we? What? - Did this women journey here from another galaxy?
Women giving up freedoms? Where is this happening, anywhere across the US?
Perhaps one of our trolls can try to spin some rational meaning out of that otherwise completely nonsensical statement?
"And yet not a single mention of the number 1 factor in these types of situations. Drinking."
Hummm? I wonder where inviting 5 strange men into a restroom for sex comes in on the list?
On the plus side, no BS about sex automatically becoming "rape" if a woman has purposefully taken any alcohol or drugs.
slwerner,
Agreed, to both of your posts. I think that this was just a puff piece to keep the fems happy.
On the plus side, no BS about sex automatically becoming "rape" if a woman has purposefully taken any alcohol or drugs.
That is why the earlier comment about blaming the victim. That is how anything along those lines would have been taken, and he would have been excoriated.
This was a case of a politician kissing assand pandering to his audience.... BIG TIME.
Archivist,
I think you have gone off the deep end on this one.
1) No, teaching women how to be safe is NOT victim-blaming. Telling a rape victim that she should have done this or that, she should have taken martial arts, she shouldn’t be in the dark, etc., which I see MRAs do, IS victim-blaming.
2) I think saying that law enforcement agencies may not take rape seriously (which I think they actually do) doesn’t mean that they completely ignore rapes. It’s not an all-or-nothing thing.
3) What do you have against an outside official leading a class? Only parents should tell their daughters how to be safe? I bet that they actually do. But we all know that kids don’t always listen to parents, do they? I wonder how many parents tell their SONS what to do and what NOT to do, such as having sex with passed-out girls. Probably very, very few.
4) “Anyone from the K-State Men's Center present? What? There is no Men's Center?” If there was a need and people thought guys would go, there would probably be one. But why make a Men’s Center when the only action it would see is a big tumbleweed rolling through?
5) Are you sure they didn’t mention drinking? Seems highly unlikely to me.
Todd said she believes all rapists are serial rapists.
And the recidivism rate for men convicted of "date rape" is extremely low -- probably because so many innocent men are convicted of that crime.
I disagree. I think that the majority of rapes that occur in colleges or on dates are because young guys are stupid and don’t have people telling them what not to do and how to behave. They listen to their buddies, who also have a skewed sense of reality. I actually don’t even think they’re rapists. Just idiots who need to grow up.
And no, I think the recidivism rate is low for date rapists because they learn the hard way that they do not have a right to put their penis where they want, and if their date doesn’t want them, then they better stop. This still leads me to believe that they are not “real” rapists, but guys who aren’t very bright.
Here's one for you -
http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattle911/archives/179416.asp
Woman accused of threatening to claim rape charged with extortion
King County prosecutors have filed second-degree extortion charges against a Renton woman accused of threatening to report a former lover as a rapist if he didn't pay her $2,000.
In court documents, Mercer Island police contend that Jeanine Ann Gessner began harassing the man after he broke a date with her to attend a pre-season Seahawks game on Aug. 22.
An instant message exchange between Gessner and the man included in court filings shows a marked shift in her attitude toward him following the broken date. Initially loving, the writer whom prosecutors allege to be Gessner ultimately sent the man dozens of threatening messages.
When the man said he would take legal action if the harassment continued, prosecutors allege Gessner began threatening she would make a false police report accusing the man of raping her.
"Let's go coward," Gessner allegedly wrote. "Who are the police going to believe? You or me? You are out of your league(.) Don't start something that you will loose(sic)."
Prosecutors allege Gessner went on to demand $2,000 for her silence.
In charging documents, prosecutors note that she was convicted of third-degree malicious mischief in a separate April domestic violence incident involving another victim, and is the subject of two anti-harassment orders filed by two other men.
Gessner was arrested Sept. 3 and later released.
This still leads me to believe that they are not “real” rapists, but guys who aren’t very bright.
Glory Hallelujiah!!!!
Did rivers suddenly start to run backwards?
I think the recidivism rate is low for date rapists because they learn the hard way that they do not have a right to put their penis where they want, and if their date doesn’t want them, then they better stop.
Well, half a loaf is better than none.
Take the following scenario -
"One time I really wanted to sleep and had a headache, but he just started humping me and grabbing for my vagina. I objected all the time and tried to push his hands off me, but he just kept going. Finally I threw him off with force, after which he started shouting how I wasn't attracted to him."
Is the person doing this a "real" rapist?
J-troll - "I disagree. I think that the majority of rapes that occur in colleges or on dates are because young guys are stupid and don’t have people telling them what not to do and how to behave. They listen to their buddies, who also have a skewed sense of reality. I actually don’t even think they’re rapists. Just idiots who need to grow up."
Well, I disagree with you!
I say the majority of alleged rapes that occur in colleges or on dates are because young women later regret to consent to sex (when their friends tell them that the guy was "Mr. Wrong, or their boyfriends find out about it), and then they cry "rape" as a way to to avoid their personal responsibility for their own choices, and to try to rehab their tarnished images.
Can you actually prove otherwise - without remembering reading something somewhere some time on Feministing, that is?
I think it depends if you're dating him/married to him or he's a stranger. (Dating him as in sleeping with him; not dating him as in a first date.)
I know many would object, but an overly amorous boyfriend/husband is more guilty of being rude than of rape. But that is only my opinion and not that of most feminists.
More from the J-Troll - "But we all know that kids don’t always listen to parents, do they? I wonder how many parents tell their SONS what to do and what NOT to do, such as having sex with passed-out girls. Probably very, very few."
My suspicion would be that it occurs far more often than parents telling their daughters not to invite strange men into restrooms for sex, then suggesting that those men bring some friends.
"What? There is no Men's Center?” If there was a need and people thought guys would go, there would probably be one. But why make a Men’s Center when the only action it would see is a big tumbleweed rolling through?"
The reason that one doesn't find Men's Centers on college campuses - although all seam to have Women's Centers - is that neither feminists nor chivalrous manginas would ever allow a Men's Center to exist. It would be sexist to have something for only men, of course.
You might recall what happened when a man tried to form an advocacy for men (At the U of Chicago, IIRC). Loud-mouth, man-hating gender-feminists from several women's advocacy groups denounced such an organization as unnecessary and sexist. Wimp-ass mangina's subserviently agreed with the protesting women; and for their supporting efforts, were told by the women that they hated them too - because they were men, and "beta loosers" at that.
I know many would object, but an overly amorous boyfriend/husband is more guilty of being rude than of rape. But that is only my opinion and not that of most feminists.
Here is the actual story. I changed the sexes in the first version to make a point -
"I got annoyed at a lot of the hypocrisy out there, and hypocrisy that my ex-girlfriends displayed. I'll give one example.
Men are supposed to respect a "no" from a woman, and I do, but try saying "no" to your girlfriend when she wants sex... One time I really wanted to sleep and had a headache, but she just started humping me and grabbing for my penis. I objected all the time and tried to push her hands off me, but she just kept going. Finally I threw her off with force, after which she started crying and shouting how I wasn't attracted to her. By all feminist definitions I got raped, but she was the angry one. As I later read in a newspaper what % of women get raped by their own partner, and how "no means no", it struck me that society has a very one-sided view."
Rude and obnoxious? You bet. As someone who has experienced something much like this, and worse, from women, I understand that it is annoying, enraging, and can lead one to be mad as hell at that person for a while.
But, by no stretch of the imagination is it criminal.
If women want to put the law on their side in terms of personal preferences in interpersonal relationships, then they can start having relationships exclusively with other women as far as I care.
I am totally fed up with the double standards, the hypocrisy, the distortions and outright lies, and the unbelievable self-centeredness of women.
Men have some rights, too, even when it comes to relationships.
"Telling a rape victim that she should have done this or that, she should have taken martial arts, she shouldn’t be in the dark, etc., which I see MRAs do, IS victim-blaming."
I'm not telling you anything. Get raped if you want. One think I will tell you: I have no control over the rapists, and neither does any other innocent man, so we can't stop it. Only the rapists and the women can prevent it.
"I wonder how many parents tell their SONS what to do and what NOT to do, such as having sex with passed-out girls. Probably very, very few."
That's right, Jeana. Parents secretly take joy in the thought that their sons are out raping passed-out girls with abandon. the boys are probably smearing ejaculate all over their sleeping faces, too, right Jeana? What a fucking pile of horsehit. Your stereotype of males in this society is beyond disgusting.
"I disagree. I think that the majority of rapes that occur in colleges or on dates are because young guys are stupid and don’t have people telling them what not to do and how to behave. They listen to their buddies, who also have a skewed sense of reality. I actually don’t even think they’re rapists. Just idiots who need to grow up."
And again, you're talking about an incredibly small percentage of date rapes. If you want to know the real story about what goes on in college campuses read the landmark article "Campus Rape Myth" by Heather MacDonald, linked on the right side of our page.
Rape is very, very rare. The students -- the female students -- ain't the radical feminist bullshit about the prevalence of rape.
The two biggest questions I would have asked him myself are,
1) What freedoms have women given up? and,
2) All rapists are serial rapists? Give me a break.
"I know many would object, but an overly amorous boyfriend/husband is more guilty of being rude than of rape."
That's no doubt true much of the time, depending on what you mean by overly amorous. It's probably more true of a boyfriend than a husband though, in general.
Actually the above didn't come out the way I intended.
I do not mean the husband is more likely than a boyfriend to have raped. I just think that since a woman is closer to her husband than another is to a boyfriend, so in the latter case, especially on the first or second date, it it probably more accurate to say that being over-amourous is rude, rather than just saying as in the case of a husband, 'not tonight honey'.
After all, the couple must probably know each others' 'amor level' before they married.
By the way jeana, I think some of the guys may be going after you here because of the lingering 'effect' of many of your past comments.
"Telling a rape victim that she should have done this or that, she should have taken martial arts, she shouldn’t be in the dark, etc., which I see MRAs do, IS victim-blaming."
Let me give you a somewhat different scenario. This has to do with a woman I came to absolutely hate, but that is a 2nd part of the story.
In the mid-80s, she was married to my best buddy for about 4 years. She eventually got tired of being married to him, and since they didn't have any kids or any values about the seriousness of marriage or any reason to stay married, they didn't.
The divorce was fairly painless because they had no kids and no real assets. They just parted ways. He went east and she went west.
A dozen or so years later I found out that she was re-married, but her husband had no sexual interest in her so she had approached my buddy (her ex-husband) about having an affair. He, being anxious to "win her back" fell right into it. She actually never had any intention of leaving her nice house and Lexus (I mean, her husband), but by implying that she might she was able to crank my buddy up into maximum courtship/pandering mode.
I went out to CA to visit my buddy, and ended up spening most of the time with her along. Her favorite topic of conversation was how amazing it was that her husband didn't want her - in front of a man who so obviously did.
One time she made some comment about "political differences" with her husband. Bored out of my skull, I asked the typical "keep her talking so I can remain zoned out" type of question - "what sort of political differences?"
She responded: "Well, if a woman goes in to a bar wearing sexy clothes and no panties, and later gets raped... did she 'ask for it'?"
I could tell that she was stacking the deck with the "no panties" bit. Of course, asking what in the world the beyotch was doing in a bar shoving her panty-less twat in men's faces in a gesture that is old as time and up until the past 40 years or so was understood by everyone to mean "mate me" - other than hustling drinks and/or attention by using men's sexual response to jerk them around - would have been a complete waste of time.
So, I instead focussed on making the point that if she had made different choices and acted differently that she would have had a different experience. I used the example of going into a poor part of town and waving around a fist full of $100 bills and getting mugged. Did not my actions directly contribute to what happened to me, and if I had not done that, wouldn't the chances that it would happen to me be much less?
After sticking with that position for about half an hour, the woman reluctantly agreed that yes, if the woman had acted differently then she would have had a different experience.
But, then she finished lamely with "BUT, I STILL think a woman 'SHOULD' be able to go anywhere she wants, do anything she wants, and wear anything she wants, and still not have anything bad happen to her."
Well, as Sonja (who seems to be one of the few women I've met recently who can understand cause and effect) pointed out - "Should and is are totally different things."
This is what I mean when I talk about women demanding that their standpoint is the only valid one.
Now, let's take 3 hypothetical men in that bar.
The first is a horny young man out for some social life. He is attracted to the "sexy clothes and no panties" woman as anyone with even 1% of a brain would expect. He falls for the false message she is giving because she is only there to jerk him around for attention and has absolutely no intention on delivering what she is implying.
The 2nd man has seen this game before, and is old and wise enough to shut down his reflexive reaction, because he is sick of having his needs and desires used to jerk him around. The problem is that this shutdown can become automatic and habitual. This 2nd man is like the woman's husband who doesn't want her any more.
(have to break here, out of characters)
She responded: "Well, if a woman goes in to a bar wearing sexy clothes and no panties, and later gets raped... did she 'ask for it'?"
**********
Feminists love to ask this stupid question repeatedly, because it deflects from the real issue in a rape case, which is the question of whether or not there is sufficient proof that a rape occurred. By putting up this straw man they often get away with putting the cart in front of the horse.
The question "Did she ask for it?" contains the false premise that a rape really happened. That is not always the case.
(continued)
So, she is playing the victim game both ways - she is a victim when she gets the reaction she wants and can't control it, as well as a victim when she doesn't get the reaction she wants.
Now, let's go on to the third man - lower IQ, poor socialization. He gets fooled just like the first guy, but isn't socialized to just put up with it, so he decides to call her on the false messages she is giving out.
And, for some reason all men get blamed for this ("rape culture"), and if anyone examines the role of her actions in bringing about what happened to her, we are "blaming the victim."
Well, I've never been mugged for waving around a fistfull of $100 bills. Part of that is because I am serious enough about not wanting it to happen that I don't do stupid and dangerous things.
But, if we suggest to women "refraining from doing stupid and dangerous things will reduce your chances of having bad things happen to you" we are "blaming the victim."
I cannot believe that women are too stupid to know and understand that men are attracted to them and react to overt displays of a woman's sexuality with sexually-motivated interest. And, I find it impossible to believe that they seem to think they are simply entitled to the attention, courtship behaviors, and sometimes outright pandering that men engage in in order to convince the woman to "consent" to sex.
So, giving out signs of sexual interest or receptivity when such is not the case, purely for gaining the benefits, and pretending to not have any clue what expectations the man might be building about this - constitutes what a lot of men might view as "sexual fraud."
When a woman commits sexual fraud, and apparently in a very cold and calculating manner - "leads a man on" - then yes, men -
1) do believe that her actions have some bearing on what happens next,
2) do bear some degree of animosity for her position, and
3) do not have large volumes of sympathy for her.
Anon at 5:02, I wholeheartedly agree. Excellent. The so-called "rape culture" is a pile of shit. Period. Yes, there are some rapists (most rape is stranger rape, from what I can tell). Beyond that, there is no rape culture. There are women using their feminine charms to seduce men -- because that's how we were made. Biologically. It's not a cultural construct. (Tell your young son that his first unexpected erection at the site of a pretty girl is a cultural construct.)
"Rape culture" does not exist.
And I love this: "But, then she finished lamely with 'BUT, I STILL think a woman 'SHOULD' be able to go anywhere she wants, do anything she wants, and wear anything she wants, and still not have anything bad happen to her.'"
I think so, too. Go tell that to the rapists. Just like I'd like to walk down Market Street in my hometown at night time without fear of being mugged because I look like a distinguished lawyer. I guess I should tell that to the muggers.
1. Telling a rape victim that she should have done this or that, she should have taken martial arts, she shouldn’t be in the dark, etc.
UM....that is telling someone to concentrate on personal safety. So, when it is a feminist sponsored forum and a man makes this kind of statement, it's ok. But let an MRA make the same statement, and it's blaming? Okay.
2. When 'rape industry' spokeswomen state that police don't take claims of rape seriously, in the vast majority of the articles we run here, that is exctly the message that is being sent.
3. I wonder how many parents tell their SONS what to do and what NOT to do, such as having sex with passed-out girls. Probably very, very few.
Since the majority(99%) don't do this, then I would say that this does occur. How many parents are warning thier daughters that regret isn't rape? And those numbers are on the increase....rapidly.
4. Ah yes, the 'they wouldn't use it any way' argument. Funny, that whenever a service for men is set up, it is usually overwhelmed in a very short period of time. I would imagine, that if there were services for men at Hofstra university, I know 4 young men who would be happy to avail themselves of the services. But the feminist stranglehold on campuses won't allow something for men. It doesn't fit into thier narrative.
5. Did you bother to read the article?
I think so, too. Go tell that to the rapists. Just like I'd like to walk down Market Street in my hometown at night time without fear of being mugged because I look like a distinguished lawyer. I guess I should tell that to the muggers.
Or, you could keep walking down Market Street, keep getting mugged, and blame it all on everyone else in the entire town by claiming that we live in a "mugger culture."
You might recall what happened when a man tried to form an advocacy for men (At the U of Chicago, IIRC). Loud-mouth, man-hating gender-feminists from several women's advocacy groups denounced such an organization as unnecessary and sexist. Wimp-ass mangina's subserviently agreed with the protesting women; and for their supporting efforts, were told by the women that they hated them too - because they were men, and "beta loosers" at that.
slwerner,
The "Men in Power" group. They are still around, and I know this first hand, as I am a member of the NCFM(National Coalition for Men) chicago chapter, and we have been in contact with them. They are a prime example of just how entrenceh, and vicious the feminist movement is. Why would there be a problem with a group for men, when on the Chicago campus, there are 8 that are just for women? Lets talk about discrimination. And the funniest part is, MIP accepts women, has women members, so while the name may come across wrong, they are more egalitarian, than any of the women only groups.
Everything that happened there is a prime example of just how much of a hate movement feminism really is.
Sorry,
that should be:
They are a prime example of just how entrenched, and vicious the feminist movement is.
I love the "mugger culture" comment. It's not exactly correct because men are assaulted A LOT more than women are sexually assaulted. A LOT.
Here's the point I've reached: I don't want to see anybody hurt, but if you want to blame me and every other innocent guy -- and by the way, I don't go to bars looking for women, I don't buy drinks for any woman other than my wife, and my sexual interest is confined to one person -- then I say GO GET YOURSELF RAPED! If you are that dumb; if you are that intent on making some idiotic political point, go ahead. I don't give a shit. I can't do anything about it.
There now penetrating kansas with femi-nazi propaganda.
Most crime and violence comes from the matriarchal underclass.
Femi-nazi think they can create a perpetual underclass of women dominated households so they can harvest the children with little to no resistance. They think they can break all resistance to creating this perpetual underclass by breaking the patriarchy.
They now have to get all the children on some form of ???medication??? which will combat the chaos produced from the forced matriarchal type structure.
"The "Men in Power" group. They are still around"
Thanks, I hadn't heard anything more about them (couldn't remember the name to look them up). It's good to know they're still at it - despite the rather harsh rhetoric about sexism that was being thrown at them (Did the Dean, or Regents consider shutting them down in their infancy? I'm a bit fuzzy on the story).
The comment from the J-troll about a Men's Center only seeing tumbleweeds brought the story back to me - especially the hugely negative reaction the the "sexist" idea of a Men's advocacy group from the many Women's advocacy groups.
Feminists seem to me to be completely in capable of recognizing their own hypocrisies. Some will claim that a Men's Center will see nothing but tumbleweeds; but, if someone were to ever start planning one, that same feminist would be rallying her "sista's" to picket and protest the very idea of something being created for the benefit of men (even if not exclusively so).
They would not even bat an eye at the whole-sale hypocrisy of planning their protests of such a Men's Center while meeting at their (exclusive) Women's Center.
Here's the point I've reached: I don't want to see anybody hurt, but if you want to blame me and every other innocent guy -- and by the way, I don't go to bars looking for women, I don't buy drinks for any woman other than my wife, and my sexual interest is confined to one person -- then I say GO GET YOURSELF RAPED! If you are that dumb; if you are that intent on making some idiotic political point, go ahead. I don't give a shit. I can't do anything about it.
I'm glad you said that. I've been skirting the issue because I don't want to give the feminidiots more ammunition (like Paul Elam did on MND with his comment about how Danmell Ndonye "cheapened herself" by pulling a train in the bathroom. I suppose he would have felt better about the whole thing if she had charged them $100/"ticket"). But, since you seem to have something to do with this site and have broken the ice -
My position has come to this - if a woman goes into a bar wearing sexy clothes and no panties (for no other purpose than to use men's sexual responses to feed her need for attention and get free drinks, with no intention whatsoever on allowing things to proceed in the direction she is implying) and later gets raped (in most cases by a low-IQ, low-socialized member of the underclass) then -
who gives a shit?
I really don't.
So, ladies, if you want to keep alienating men who at one time would have been your allies; if you want to force us to view the dialogue as a zero sum game by maintaining your lies that women do not lie about rape, so that every "seriously disturbed" or lowlife out there can put us in prison for something we didn't do, on the off chance that not allowing it might mean some woman some where might not get to crucify her rapist; and you want to blame all men for your refusal to grow up, take responsibility for your own choices and your own actions, and the consequences thereof; -
then keep talking about "rape culture" and the day will come when men are not just talking about taking away your rights, but when some man will be able to walk by you on the street when you are on fire, and not be willing to spit on you to put you out.
Is that what you really want?
Slwerner, I love this: "Feminists seem to me to be completely in capable of recognizing their own hypocrisies. Some will claim that a Men's Center will see nothing but tumbleweeds; but, if someone were to ever start planning one, that same feminist would be rallying her "sista's" to picket and protest the very idea of something being created for the benefit of men (even if not exclusively so)."
They are the same ones who insist that men "don't need" their own ANYTHING. Men are the ones "in power."
Let me clarify. I don't believe women "ask for it." Rape is rape. If a woman "asks for it," it wasn't rape, it was consensual.
I do believe everyone should be careful. If some women don't want to be careful, there's nothing I can do about it. I am not going to make a chivalrous ass of myself and beg some constipated radical feminist with an ideological broom up her ass to please be careful.
Let me clarify. I don't believe women "ask for it." Rape is rape. If a woman "asks for it," it wasn't rape, it was consensual.
Let me clarify something...
If I got falling down stupid drunk, and passed out on a bench in an unsavory part of town; and when I woke up found that I had been rolled, my pockets emptied, my watch, credit cards, and wallet stolen; is there a man alive who would listen to my "tale of woe" and "there-there" me and not say "Well, you stupid SOB, you asked for it!" ?
Let me clarify. I don't believe women "ask for it." Rape is rape. If a woman "asks for it," it wasn't rape, it was consensual.
*****
That's right. No argument with that.
On the other hand, men definitely don't ask for it when they are lured into a bathroom for hot sex and get set up -- even when they forget to tape the orgy. We should demand a high level of proof before believing rape accusations.
There is a new feminist term for consensual sex: "gray rape."
That's when no rape happened but feminists want to pretend that it did.
I do care about rape victims even if they did something stupid, but not enough to sacrifice the rights of innocent men. Rape is not a special crime that should be placed above all others, requiring the human sacrifice of the victims of liars and immunity for the criminals.
"There is a new feminist term for consensual sex: 'gray rape.' That's when no rape happened but feminists want to pretend that it did."
Look, rape is simple to define: would a reasonable MALE have understood she consented. THAT'S the most fundamental legal definition. Her secret, subjective, hidden, unspoken whims, wishes and desires make no difference. All that matters are her outward manifestations of assent. If a reasonable person in the position of the male thinks she consented, SHE CONSENTED.
"I do care about rape victims even if they did something stupid, but not enough to sacrifice the rights of innocent men. Rape is not a special crime that should be placed above all others, requiring the human sacrifice of the victims of liars and immunity for the criminals."
Excellent point.
Look, rape is simple to define: would a reasonable MALE have understood she consented. THAT'S the most fundamental legal definition. Her secret, subjective, hidden, unspoken whims, wishes and desires make no difference. All that matters are her outward manifestations of assent. If a reasonable person in the position of the male thinks she consented, SHE CONSENTED.
mmmmmmmmmmmm,
Are you the lawyer, here Pierce? The reason I ask ties to something I said about "Standpoint Theory" earlier. I realize it's not Lexis/Nexis or Westlaw (if that is still around) but here is what http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Reasonable+Woman
has to say -
"In evaluating alleged sexual harassment, the reasonable person standard is an objective standard of perception based on a fictitious, reasonable person. Using this standard in a sexual harassment case, the fact finder would ask whether a reasonable person in the plaintiff's position would have felt that the respondent's actions constituted grounds for a sexual harassment claim. By contrast, a reasonable woman standard allows the fact finder to ask whether a reasonable woman in the plaintiff's position would have felt that the respondent's actions constituted sexual harassment. The difference is that the reasonable woman standard accounts for the different perceptions between men and women regarding words or actions of a sexual nature.
The courts that use the reasonable woman standard recognize a difference between men and women regarding the effect of unwanted sexual interaction. Because women historically have been more vulnerable to rape and sex related violence than have men, these courts believe that the proper perspective for evaluating a claim of sexual harassment is that of the reasonable woman."
That was what I was saying about some people maintaining that the female standpoint is the only valid one. Sexual Harassment and Rape are always claimed by the femnasties to be part of the same continuum of "sexual violence", and the citation above specifically mentions "rape and sex related violence", so the definition could be fungible based on whether or women or men are evaluating the conduct in question.
"Rape is not a special crime that should be placed above all others"
I've been saying that for years. I don't even see where it's 'second only to murder'. As I've said before, very serious assault should be considered worse. There are also other worse crimes such as torture and some cases of kidnapping, etc.
"Rape is not a special crime that should be placed above all others"
I've been saying that for years. I don't even see where it's 'second only to murder'. As I've said before, very serious assault should be considered worse. There are also other worse crimes such as torture and some cases of kidnapping, etc.
Look up the fable of "The Princess and the Pea." Women's "exquisite sensitivity" is being used as a weapon here to batter men into submission by claiming massive internal emotional damage (even while claiming that women are "stronger than men").
It's a great scam. Women have been running it so long there is even a fable about it. Another name for it is "Control Drama."
In the end, control drama causes the person you are manipulating to lose all respect for you -- which is what is gradually happening with men now. Women really should stop demeaning themselves this way.
I think you need to see sexual harassment and abuse from a woman’s point of view because a man does not necessarily think that certain actions he takes are any big deal. Pierce himself says, “If a reasonable person in the position of the male thinks she consented, SHE CONSENTED.”
I couldn’t disagree more. First, you need to define “reasonable” and second, by “person”, do you include men? Because we all know you can give a guy a smile and he thinks you want him. Men do not get it. Men and women both misinterpret things. But especially men. So if a man thinks you want him because you’re not screaming “No”, then he can do what he wants? Men misinterpret being polite as encouraging them. No, Pierce, it is not up to men to decide if women want sex. If you are not absolutely sure, then DON’T DO IT.
Jeana, I didn't cite my opinion, that's the law. Whether you or I agree with it doesn't really matter.
"Men and women both misinterpret things. But especially men."
You are -- respectfully -- as usual, totally wrong. Women are typically very poor communicators in these matters because they're trying to have it both ways -- they're trying to string the guy along while not letting her vagina to be touched by his penis if she can avoid it. I did a post on this a while back. Science now shows women are the ones who, pardon my French, fuck everything up because they are incapable of communicating clearly.
Actually, I don’t think it’s women who are the poor communicators. Men get confused when women try to politely rebuff them. I truly think the only thing you people get is a mean, rude, bitch. Those of us who don’t want to offend and hope you get the hint have to deal with guys who will keep doing what they’re doing till they get what they want. Maybe we do need to teach all females to be rude to you so you understand. Because many of you don’t.
And if you want to assume, then you will unfortunately bear the consequences.
Jeana, men can take a hint. A brand new study shows that "no" often really means "yes" in a woman's world. They've been trained since they were girls to be coy (come on, Jeana -- you were trained to be coy, admit it, ADMIT IT!!). Men know this, so they keep asking. Women eventually come around, and then the next day, when regret sets in (another study shows women have much more regret than men after one-night-stands), they falsely cry rape.
That's the reality, Jeana. And again, it's not my opinion. That's what the experts say.
"Actually, I don’t think it’s women who are the poor communicators."
Actually they are, there's a brand new study out (I'm sure some of the guys here have seen it) that shows that not only can men not tell whether a woman is being polite or making sexual advances, but neither can women.
That's poor communication any way you stack it.
It shows beyond a doubt that the fault lies with women for not giving clear signals that can be readily interpreted as "yes" or "no".
This is probably due to,as Archivist put it, "trying to string the guy along while not letting her vagina to be touched by his penis if she can avoid it".
I would agree that when it comes to sex, box sexes should be clearer. Actually, I think men are pretty darn clear. I’ve never had any problem knowing what guys had on their minds.
I don’t think girls are trained to be coy. We are “trained” not to be whores. Or told not to be. So even if we want you, that is somehow bad, and we can’t come right out and be as assertive sexually as we’d like. And from everything I’ve read in my impeccable sources (such as Glamour and Cosmo, but actually other places too), guys WANT to play games. They want a little “chase”. They are far more interested in you for far longer if you don’t “give in” right away.
So I would say that it is more biologically motivated and socially motivated and less “let’s screw with guys”. Even if that’s what it appears to be.
Jeana at 9:35: I agree.
"And from everything I’ve read in my impeccable sources (such as Glamour and Cosmo, but actually other places too), guys WANT to play games. They want a little “chase”. They are far more interested in you for far longer if you don’t “give in” right away."
You're taking advice from homosexual women about what guys want. Think about that.
You're listening to the wrong people.
Men don't want to play games. We want a yes/no answer. It's hard enough to figure out what the hell you ladies want(because you don't even know what it is) at any given moment without you intentionally being deceitful toward us.
Actually, those magazines have articles written by men too. Or they quiz guys. I am always interested in what males say about what they like.
But you are right; a yes/no answer is the best way. And since we females already know if we want you, we should just let you know this.
Some of you are very mistaken about the nature of false accusations. They aren't about miscommunication.
False rape accusers are malicious criminals who know exactly what they are doing and who do it for a psychological payoff. Like the little girl who lies about her brother because she enjoys getting him in trouble and loves to be coddled by a foolish parent, these "ladies" live for the attention that they get by pretending to be victims. And they will take incredible risks to get the attention that they need.
Crystal Mangum did not just wake up one day and decide to frame those boys. She had a very long history of lying.
"Actually, those magazines have articles written by men too. Or they quiz guys."
Homosexual feminist men aren't exactly the best source of advice either,at least,if we're talking about heterosexual dating advice.
Do you think these people would sell magazines if they told you that all you had to do was look pretty and be polite?
I doubt it. But that's all you have to do to keep a man interested:
look pretty
smile
be polite
The games are totally unnecessary ,and frankly,extremely annoying.
"But you are right; a yes/no answer is the best way. And since we females already know if we want you, we should just let you know this."
Exactly. Thank you for saying so.
Dear "slwerner":
There is without a single doubt that women DO give up more and more freedoms in their life to "prevent" rape -- something that women shouldn't even have to do. No woman is ASKED to be raped. No woman should HAVE to protect themselves from being raped because in a perfect world, there would be no perpetrator of such violence.
Freedoms that are given up: Taking peaceful walks alone at night; sleeping with windows open for a night breeze; living alone; freedom of expression in clothes, etc etc.
Freedoms ARE wrongfully given up. Let's Be Nice to Each Other.
Let me lay some cold facts down for the majority of you, since you seem to be so sadly misinformed, or more likely, just plain ignorant.
According to the U.S. Department of Justice, in a 2005 National Crime Victimization Study, "Sexual assault is one of the most under reported crimes, with 60% still being left unreported. Males are the least likely to report a sexual assault, though they make up about 10% of all victims."
The National Center (1999) for Policy Analysis did a report in Crime and Punishment in America. Here's the facts:
1. If a rape is reported, there is a 50.8% chance of an arrest.
2. If an arrest is made, there is an 80% chance of prosecution.
3. If there is a prosecution, there is a 58% chance of a conviction.
4. If there is a felony conviction, there is a 69% chance of jail time.
5. SO, in the 39% of rapes reported to the police, there is a 16.3% chance the rapist will end up in prison.
6. 15 of 16 rapists walk free.
I urge you all to take a closer look at real rape statistics. Here's an excellent link- http://www.rainn.org/statistics
And as for you, Norm, who stated "I've been saying that for years. I don't even see where it's 'second only to murder'. As I've said before, very serious assault should be considered worse. There are also other worse crimes such as torture and some cases of kidnapping, etc."
My only response is this: You've clearly never been raped. Probably never even imagined it, because, in doing so, your assailant would probably be a male, and you would be anally or orally raped. On top of your embarrassment and trauma, you'd have to decide whether or not to report it, and then face scrutiny when most vulnerably exposed. According to World Health Organization (2002), you (as a victim of rape) would be:
3 times more likely to suffer from depression.
6 times more likely to suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder.
13 times more likely to abuse alcohol.
26 times more likely to abuse drugs.
4 times more likely to contemplate suicide.
Rape can sometimes seem like a less heinous crime because the lasting trauma is less physical than murder or kidnapping. But once you understand the reach of violence, and how one infected person affects the pool that surrounds them, you begin to understand just how detrimental these crimes can be on our society as a whole.
Having said this, I would like to say the following: I’m definitely no “man hater” (love ‘em, myself), nor ignorant to the arguments of either side. And I can certainly understand when decent, upstanding men get defensive about being classified with same-gendered rapists. Alcohol sincerely complicates things in every respect, and when a rape case is in the gray area (if either party, or both, were drunk), obviously the justice line is blurred. Let me reiterate my point above by saying, most commonly, when one or the other party is drunk, it becomes a case of ‘a one night stand’ and NOT rape. Both men and women need to take responsibility for their actions, but they can hardly do so when their cognition is literally, retarded from their normal functioning. And since Prohibition was such a fantastic fail, we will simply have to keep teaching young men and women about clearly communicated boundaries, especially while drunk. And as for that solution, I must sadly admit I have no magic answer. Pointing fingers at “man-haters” or “misogynists” and making wide, sweeping generalizations about gender behavior will not solve anyone’s problems. Keep a clear, unbiased eye about you in concerning matters of criminal activity, and consider it your duty to help explain such things to your peers- such things as boundaries, clear communication, respect for one another when it comes to sexual activities. Social change may sound cliché, but it’s the only thing that will help, and we can start to do it on a micro level (aka- personal, family, peers.)
Here’s the good news. The US Department of Justice (2007) reported that “Sexual assault has fallen by more than 60% in recent years.” This is since 1993. It appears that something is going right. Thanks for reading.
Kelly, you obviously are a new reader here because, with all due respect, the statistics you've cited are politicized and unreliable in the extreme. From what study were they taken? I can tell you -- they weren't. They were concocted by the sexual grievance industry of which RAINN is part. That industry foments rape hysteria and slanders an entire gender. We are familiar with every major and serious rape study ever conducted, and your stats simply don't merit further discussion. This is the world's leading site dedicated to giving voice to those falsely accused of rape. We have many, many false rape victims reading, and your post with the politicized figures is a triggering event. I have not deleted it, but you need to be more sensitive to the victims of this terrible crime who find a home here.
P.S. as for the stats cited: we've demonstrated elsewhere on this site how these sorts of stats can't be reconciled with the other stats about the supposed prevalence of rape -- the one-in-whatever (a moving target depending on how you look at it). Moreover, and most problematically, her stats don't account for any false rape claims -- and false rape claims might account for up to way or far more of all rape claims. I am certain she'd find that assertion incredible -- which only shows how little she knows about this area.
1. Statistics are so unreliable that there is no point in citing them. i personally have 7 friends who were raped who did not report to anyone but to me and the nurse to check for stds.
2. For all those falsely accused, my heart goes out to you and your families.
- i can't imagine anything worse than being accused falsely, of rape or child molestation.
3. (Unless perhaps Being raped or the victim of a child molester.)
4. Accompanying women, men, boys and girls to the hospital year after year, after they were raped, drugged and raped, raped after being beaten, etc, makes me an "expert" in knowing that the crime is ubiquitous. These are traumatized people..
When i was a therapist, i saw many individuals who were sexually violated who spoke to no one but me, their therapist. Every therapist i know has similar data.
Several women and one man i have worked with in just the past year, (like every year,) were virgins and non-drinkers. alcohol is mentioned a lot, but we move the focus around as there are so many aspects of the crime.
I am sorry some of you sounded so bitter and angry and Insulting toward me Personally, who you do not know. Do you believe there is NO RAPE?
http://www.doublex.com/blog/yourcomeback/night-after-serial-rapist-was-caught
The David Lisak film (The Undetected rapist) is based on interviews with the men themselves, who describe their own behaviors. men in prison also have given interviews to researchers--all the data does not come from victims.
Crimes occur, whether murder, robbery, battering, home invasion, theft, etc. I dont care about the gender thing, other than as a predictor research factor. Testoterone? . Men are also stronger than women. Smarter in certain areas. Point is, men and women are different, and that's why there are different services and needs. Women have their own general flaws and bad behaviors and criminal tendencies. Men have theirs. Can we get past the gender thing to look at Behavior?
However, murder and battering are undeniable statistics. No one tries to say that women and men who are beaten to within an inch of their lives are lying. We know those crimes are common- many murders and batterings of men women and children every year. (Most murdered women are killed by men they know. Most men are killed by other men) That evidence is visible. The evidence of rape is less so.
True, some men are ignorant of the law when they come into the grown-up world. We teach them as well as women as we do not want them to get in trouble, and we want everyone to have a good time without violence. By good time i mean respectful and honorable behavior. Are there a lot of men who are virginal and respectful of women who are falsely accused? How are those stats collected? Since every rapist, even the murdering serial home invasion rapist, is likely to say he's innocent, how do you tease apart those stats?
Yes, many people act in risky and licentious ways these days. Too bad, in my opinion. But to speak as if all women are that way, or that rape victims are all like that, is just silly.
Lost Freedoms-- (i poll/ask this of the male students, teachers, co-workers, etc--) do you ever think twice about sleeping with your windows open? Locking and closing windows day and night? keep yourself from taking photos of the lake at sunrise or sunset? ever worry about being nice while dancing with someone because they might think it means you are giving consent for sex?
Too long. You mentioned my name, I thought i'd try to respond.
In my many years as therapist or advocate, i believe i encountered 2 false reports. When you work with the truth, a lie sticks out.
Sadly, I am sure there is a need for this site and others like it. It breaks my heart.
But you hurt the truth of your cause by ignoring the truth of mine-maybe they are related-
To encourage men and women to be honorable, truthful, and admirable, look out for each other, and never to resort to violence, force, lying, bullying, or deception.
Fu'cryin out loud.
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