This is A Tale of Two Crimes, and a vital lesson about how our justice system reacts to them. Read these news accounts because it might explain why this website attracts so many readers who are fed up with the gross, misandric double-standards when it comes to rape and false rape claims. No further comment about these stories can possibly express the rage that is the appropriate reaction to them.
Girl in false rape claim
A 12-year-old girl has been given a reprimand for wasting police time after falsely reporting a rape in Reading.
The girl reported she had been raped in Whitley and a 15-year-old boy was arrested. But a police investigation revealed the report to be false.
A spokeswoman said: "We take every report seriously and would not want to discourage anyone from coming forward."
_________________________________
Did you catch the part about the boy being arrested? And the dear spokeswoman apologetically urging other rape claimants to come forward -- without mentioning the boy or others like him?
Now compare that hideous little story with this one, and try to tell me things are the way they should be:
Ga. Boys Ages 8 and 9 Charged With Rape
Three boys, ages 8 and 9, were being held Monday in a detention center on charges of kidnapping and raping an 11-year-old girl near a suburban apartment complex, officials said.
The alleged attack happened Thursday and the girl's mother reported it to authorities Sunday, Acworth police Capt. Wayne Dennard said.
"The victim said they were playing outdoors and the girl was forced into a wooded area where she was sexually assaulted, where one of the boys raped her," Dennard told The Associated Press.
The three boys — an 8-year-old and two 9-year-olds — appeared in juvenile court Monday afternoon, dwarfed by the courtroom chairs and wearing navy blue jump suits and shackles. Their names were withheld because of their age.
Cobb County District Attorney Pat Head said the boys could not be charged with felony crimes because of their age but could be tried for alleged delinquent acts that could place them in a juvenile facility for up to five years.
The next step will be for the court to schedule a hearing to determine how to proceed in the case, Head said.
Juvenile Court Judge A. Gregory Poole issued a gag order preventing the lawyers from commenting further.
Acworth Police Chief Mike Wilkie said one of the boys was accused of threatening to hit the girl with a rock before the alleged assault. Wilkie also said the investigation is "far from over," and investigators are looking into claims that after the alleged attack, the girl talked about it with her friends at a slumber party.
The girl's mother told WGCL-TV in Atlanta, "They do need to be taught a lesson because if they do it to her, they could do it to somebody else. And who knows when they become teenagers what they can do to other girls."
The case involves children from a working class apartment complex. Acworth, 30 miles northwest of Atlanta along the shores of Lake Allatoona, is a town of about 17,000.
Acworth police said their department has never before investigated allegations of rape where all the parties were this young. "This wouldn't be normal anywhere, but especially not Acworth," Dennard said.
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/11/19/national/a053806S70.DTL&tsp=1#ixzz0MgiUsWP0
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62 comments:
why'd she talk about it at the slumber party, and why didn't the people she talked to report it before the mother? Sounds fishy to me.
Acworth police said their department has never before investigated allegations of rape where all the parties were this young. "This wouldn't be normal anywhere, but especially not Acworth," Dennard said.
Thats probably because this isnt a rape at all.
This happens all the time in children of this age. They are experimenting. girls are curious, boys are curious.
the boys were 8 and 9, and the girl was 11? I'd take a guess she initiated it, or was at least a willing participant.
When I was a young boy I saw a few incidents of underage sex. The first was an incident encouraged by sexually mature teenage girls, the second was again sexually mature teenage girls encouraging a sexually immature male to touch them.
so these girls are not innocent little princesses at all. my guess is the 11 year old girl knew exactly what she was doing.
What this comes down to is saving the girls reputation.
Steve,
This happens all the time in children of this age. They are experimenting. girls are curious, boys are curious.
the boys were 8 and 9, and the girl was 11? I'd take a guess she initiated it, or was at least a willing participant.
That's a big assumption to make. I'm not saying a rape took place, and I'm not saying it didn't take place. But I'm not going to assume that it's false before more evidence is revealed.
Norm,
If she was actually raped, then perhaps she wanted support from the people she knew and trusted. I mean when something terrible happens to you, you're encouraged to talk about it. At least she told SOMEONE, unlike alot of rape victims that keep it to themselves for so long (if she's telling the truth). These are all young girls. The girls who were told probably didn't know how to handle it. They just allowed to mom to report the incident since she's the girl's mother.
Have to say the first case is a useful example. If someone who as young as 12 (i.e. still relatively naive and uneducated) has had their mind poisoned in such a way by our society that they realise they can get away with making false rape allegations, then it's no wonder so many adult women are at it.
Even a 12 year old realsises what power she has resulting form otu rape laws AND it's clear form this case that some are willing to use it fully!
More lies; more anti-male hate.
Boys 8 and 9 raping someone is pretty far fetched, but in this day and age...who knows anymore. And hey, rapists don't reach adulthood or young adulthood and suddenly start raping (at least that's what I think). It originates from somewhere.
Like I said, I'm not saying they're guilty or not guilty. I'll wait for the evidence, recantation, etc.
Nothing will change until the gender feminist / law enforcement misinformation Alliance is broken.The reason they give for the misinformation alliance...is just more bullshit to further the misinformation perversion.
The law enforcement community is currently engaging in activities that are beyond the scope that the U.S constitution granted them. Manufacturing rape and domestic violence statistics ..that leads to a judicial prejudice is a perversion, and is unconstitutional.
Well put Anon
It's ludicrous to suggest feminists and law enforcement are somehow in cohorts. Also, cops little or no interest in furthering false information of the kind related to rape. If tomorrow it became widely known that 90% of allegations were false, the police would merely arrest and bully the other 10% - so what? That has nothing to do with ideology.
It has always been true that the police are happy to have a reason to restrain, arrest, and beat up people. In the 60's it was the hippies and radicals. That doesn't mean there was an alliance between the police and big business.
Of course it's not ludicrous to suggest the COURTS are biased in favor of feminists, but that's mainly out of FEAR of repurcussion from women's groups. I don't thing there's too many non-feminist judges who conspire with radical feminists.
Maybe NASA is though. Watch out anon. I saw a woman in your back yard last night wearing a space suit.
Renee,
so basically you're saying an 8-year old girl who was raped would not be scared shitless, but would instead seek therapy from her 8-year old friends? It sounds to me like you're confused with this particular scenario, and an adult one.
And even applied to normal scenarious, you're pretty much just re-hashing and parroting the same old crock. It's called the 'broken record syndrome', except the record's been broken for 40 years. I suppose you're also of the school where 'a woman might not come forward because she might not be believed'.
Actually this parroting is not just something benign. It has to do with how feminist non-truths get spread, for example to generate anti-male hysteria.
It's fun to pretend to be scared, isn't it? Except when you need help with a flat tire, then suddenly men are not dangerous (until he's done changing the tire).
I will reiterate for those that have a difficult time comprehending what is being said.
Nothing will change until the gender feminist / law enforcement misinformation Alliance is broken.The reason they give for the misinformation alliance...is just more bullshit to further the misinformation perversion.
The law enforcement community is currently engaging in activities that are beyond the scope that the U.S constitution granted them. Manufacturing rape and domestic violence statistics ..that leads to a judicial prejudice is a perversion, and is unconstitutional.
SteveUK said..
the boys were 8 and 9, and the girl was 11? I'd take a guess she initiated it, or was at least a willing participant.
Renee said..
That's a big assumption to make.
No its not.
I've been witness to females initiating sex all my life, the incidents when I was a boy, and even in my adult life, its usually the female that has initiated sex. I just hoped and prayed(!)
so Its probably closer to the truth to say that girls initiate sex with boys more than the other way around.
lets not forget the nature of females. they are sexual beings, and girls are sexualized at a very young age (by their own mothers, the media etc), so its no suprise that they go out and experiment with it.
look at the magazines they read, they're packed with sexually explicit content, '101 best sex postions for you and your boyfriend.' thats what these young 11 year old girls are reading these days. Its top shelf stuff.
So I think we cannot just assume this girl has been raped, just on her and her mothers say so, when there are so many reasons for them to lie about it, not least reputation.
This girl has probably been talking to her friends about it, and its somehow its got back to her mother and now shes worried about her little princesses reputation. sprinkle in an unhealthy does of misandry from the middle-aged mother and you've got yourself a rape allegation.
As we've described on this site many times, the gender feminists spearheaded serious changes in the rape laws and policies while men were sleeping and judges are stuck with them. It isn't necessarily a conspiracy, it's that judges hands are tied. I am not referring solely to rape shield laws (much of which is not unreasonable) -- I am referring to Rule of Evid. 413 (the most misandric law ever put on our books), VAWA's polygraph law, asymmetrical anonymity in the news media (and by law in the UK), extension or abolition of statutes of limitations for rape, VAWA's payment of legal fees for rape victims but not for victims of false rape claims, etc.
Renee,
You are quite correct in that there aren't enough facts to make a decision.
But take a look at how the only facts we know are spun against the accused and the presumption of guilt of the accused:
(1) the accuser is labelled as "victim"
(2) the accusers mother says that the accused need to be taught a lesson...they could do it to other girls when they get older.
Sex crimes is one of those areas of justice where we've converted Anglo-Saxon common law into the Napoleonic Code.
Logical people like you and I reserve judgement. But the System is set up to slant an already titled playing field against those accused of sex crimes. And since the conviction rate for rape hovers around 10%, it suggests to me that the titled playing field results in the dominating proportion of rape accusations that are false and/or unsupportable.
The odds favor a false accusation to actual instance of rape by 2-to-1.
The point of the post was to illustrate how we treat even little boys accused of rape compared with somewhat older girls who actually falsely accused a male of rape (and caused him to be arrested). We, of course, have no idea what, if anything, the little boys actually did. But it underscores that we treat male sex crimes as worse than any crime aside from murder, while we treat false rape claims as barely crimes at all -- less serious than stealing a candy bar -- despite the terrible harm false claims often cause innocent males.
In order to show that I understand what was said (and responded to it), I here copy and paste:
"Nothing will change until the gender feminist / law enforcement misinformation Alliance is broken."
Again, there is no such alliance.
"The reason they give for the misinformation alliance...is just more bullshit to further the misinformation perversion."
So...you mean someone has questioned 'them' as to why they have such an 'alliance'?
"the gender feminists spearheaded serious changes in the rape laws and policies while men were sleeping and judges are stuck with them. It isn't necessarily a conspiracy, it's that judges hands are tied."
Canada is even worse in those respects. (from what I've read in "Legalizing Misandry")
"girls are sexualized at a very young age (by their own mothers, the media etc), so its no suprise that they go out and experiment with it. "
Isn't there something about how, over the last several decades, girls have been physically maturing (i.e. ovulating, hormonal changes, etc.) earlier and earlier? I seem to recall reading that quite a while back. I don't know if they figured out why yet. One possibility was supposedly the environment was causing the problem (I guess pollutants or whatever).
Certain you cannot separate these physical changes from psychological changes (though there is no shortage of people who try and do so. Their underlying mentality seems to be, "How dare you say our daughters are ready for sex!!". Or they are just non-scientific dumbos.)
Norm,
so basically you're saying an 8-year old girl who was raped would not be scared shitless, but would instead seek therapy from her 8-year old friends? It sounds to me like you're confused with this particular scenario, and an adult one.
It sounds to me that you're confused too. I've never been in this situation and I doubt that you have been too. Everyone's different and react differently to crimes committed against them. If this really did happen and she trust those girls, then yes I can see that happening. When you're scared after something like this happens to you most likely go to those you trust, especially your own peers.
And even applied to normal scenarious, you're pretty much just re-hashing and parroting the same old crock. It's called the 'broken record syndrome', except the record's been broken for 40 years. I suppose you're also of the school where 'a woman might not come forward because she might not be believed'.
And how do you know that's it's crock? Have you experienced rape and it's aftermath for yourself? No I haven't been raped myself, but I'm not going to sit here and say how rape victims should react or their mindset. Do find it believable, yes, I freely admit that.
And anyway, we all know about true victim-blaming and the truely unfair judgment and ridicule that rape victims sometimes face. And when it comes to the accused who are popular, famous, or atheletes, the victim-blaming and scorn goes up another notch. It's no wonder that they don't come forward. I mentioned it before, google "The Rape of Mr. Smith".
And about the "anti-male hysteria", you do have other males who perpetuate that belief also.
It's fun to pretend to be scared, isn't it? Except when you need help with a flat tire, then suddenly men are not dangerous (until he's done changing the tire).
Pretend to be scared? Oh yeah it's so much fun to have to watch your drinks everytime you're out at a party or club so it doesn't get spiked, or to have to walk by yourself to your car in a dark area because noone is there to walk you, being sexual harrassed/assaulted/raped (because YES it really does happen)....
I'm not saying ALL men are dangerous by the way, or that men don't go through anything themselves. I'm just saying that our ~fear~ is valid.
Steve,
But isn't that basing this case on your own personal experiences. That's like me saying that all men are sex-crazed because of personal encounters. Of course we know that's not true.
So I think we cannot just assume this girl has been raped, just on her and her mothers say so, when there are so many reasons for them to lie about it, not least reputation.
I agree with you, but I also agree that we can't assume that she's lying as well. That's half the problem right there why so many don't come forward when it REALLY happens.
Elusive and Pierce,
I understand and agree with you completely.
I have a question though, how should cases like this be treated in the media. With any other crime, the accused and victim are treated the same way right? I don't really remember, or rather I haven't really thought about it.
". . . our ~fear~ is valid."
Your fear is based on irrational hysteria. Innocent males are 1.5 to 2 times more likely to be assaulted than females. Even Jessica "Feministing" Valenti's latest book agrees with that.
"Everyone's different and react differently to crimes committed against them"
You're thinking is muddled here - It seems you are unable to apply the common sense idea of what one would think would be the girl's norman reaction. In your zeal to defend her, you keep positing all these "well, maybies..."
"And how do you know that's it's crock?"
The burden of proof is on the offense, in logic as well as law.
If you're going around scared of all those things, then either you're a sucker for the media, you're pretending, or you're just plain nutty. Perhaps you should become a shut-in.
In fact, men have a lot more to fear from false allegations and the general misadric mindset, than do women who would be supposedly be victimized by the things all evil men commit. That is how far the whole thing has become skewed.
"norman reaction." above, should say "normal reaction.
btw, have you ever asked a man you you did not know, for help with anything, even if just directions or something? Try to be honest in your answer. Then when you have answered "yes", please explain why you trusted him not do anything evil.
"so many don't come forward when it REALLY happens."
if they don't come forward, how do you know anything happened?
You know, the more I see your posts week to week, it becomes evident that nothing you have ever seen here has made a single dent in your ignorance. If this were grade school, you would be perpetually stuck in first grade.
There are internet boards for all levels of intelligence. Perhaps you are wasting your (and our) time by being on the wrong board.
Pierce,
How is what I said based on hysteria? I didn't say it happens all the time, only that it does happen and that it is a reality that women do face. I am fully aware that crimes happen to men too. I was only replying specifically to what Norm said.
I admit that everyone from the media to parents paint this idea that females must be protected and that they must be careful at all times.
Renee says
Pretend to be scared? Oh yeah it's so much fun to have to watch your drinks everytime you're out at a party or club so it doesn't get spiked,
scott says...the "rufee" hysteria has been debunked, girls are not getting their drinks spiked all over the place...It's just more, and more hysteria...that is generateing more and more cultural "mass hysteria".
The only thing that combats mass hysteria...is the truth, and the willingness to get the truth.
The truth is what gender feminist dominance of our courts do not want. The truth would give society a proper perspective on things, and not a faulty and inflammatory "mass hysteria" perspective we now have!!
Norm said..
Isn't there something about how, over the last several decades, girls have been physically maturing (i.e. ovulating, hormonal changes, etc.) earlier and earlier? I seem to recall reading that quite a while back. I don't know if they figured out why yet.
yeah I've read that in the past. Im no expert, but there probably has been a slow lowering of the age of sexual maturity for a long long time, but the sex culture since the 60's and 'free love' has likely accelerated that drop, to the point where we're now seeing 10/11/12 year olds sexually active on a regular basis.
single mothers taking new boyfriends into the home every few months, mothers walking around in sexually provocative clothing, allowing children to wear provocative clothing, television programmes like 'sex in the city' all influence children, and they are watching all this stuff and I think your right, its affecting them psychologically, and in turn, affecting them physically which has drastically brought down age of sexual maturity.
Norm said ..
It's fun to pretend to be scared, isn't it? Except when you need help with a flat tire, then suddenly men are not dangerous (until he's done changing the tire).
I agree with this.
Women seem to enjoy frightening themselves by enjoying fantasys about evil men, but then as soon as a woman needs something from a man, she is capable of dropping the fantasy and excepting the help.
the problem with this, is that while women are enjoying these fantasy, it is perpetuating the myth that men are bad in society, and anti-male laws are being introduced based on these female fantasys.
renee said ..
to have to watch your drinks everytime you're out at a party or club so it doesn't get spiked, or to have to walk by yourself to your car in a dark area because noone is there to walk you, being sexual harrassed/assaulted/raped (because YES it really does happen)....
yes these things do happen, but not nearly as often as is made out.
it is not the fault of men you feel like this. you should be asking other women, feminist groups, and the media why they blow these things out of all proportion.
You're thinking is muddled here - It seems you are unable to apply the common sense idea of what one would think would be the girl's norman reaction. In your zeal to defend her, you keep positing all these "well, maybies..."
And in your zeal, you think that I'm defending her, which I am not. I don't know whether she's guilty or telling the truth. I'm just explaining how the way she acted after the alledged rape may be normal for rape victims. How can you sit there and say how ALL rape victims should act after a crime is committed. You don't know what's going through their head, so you don't really know. THAT is common sense. So yes I do use "well" and "maybes" because I can't say how all rape victims would react, especially if I haven't been raped myself.
The burden of proof is on the offense, in logic as well as law.
What does that have anything to do in relation to what was posted in that the "crock" I thought was being discussed what a rape victims reactions and thought process after being attacked? What "crock" are you speaking of?
If you're going around scared of all those things, then either you're a sucker for the media, you're pretending, or you're just plain nutty. Perhaps you should become a shut-in.
I typed fear like this: ~fear~, for a reason. I wasn't necessarily saying that women are scared of those things or everything, but they are some of the things that we worry about. I mean, a girl is always caution about going into a guys room period. Is there the same caution for boys going into a girl's room? My comment was more of a comeback to your own comment about how "fun" it is to "pretend to be scared".
btw, have you ever asked a man you you did not know, for help with anything, even if just directions or something? Try to be honest in your answer. Then when you have answered "yes", please explain why you trusted him not do anything evil.
Yes I have asked a man for something, including directions. I don't believe ALL men are evil, I even said this:
I'm not saying ALL men are dangerous by the way, or that men don't go through anything themselves.
I don't know why you keep thinking I said that. Anyway, you can say that they looked nice and trustworthy enough, not to mention that in the times I recall we were in public areas.
if they don't come forward, how do you know anything happened?
How do you know anything didn't happen lol. I admit that I constantly hear that most don't report their rape to the police from personal testimonials to statistics. And knowing how rape victims and rape itself are treated, along with how evidence can be hard to come by, I can see why most wouldn't.
You know, the more I see your posts week to week, it becomes evident that nothing you have ever seen here has made a single dent in your ignorance.
And I think that you can't look beyond your bias and your own ignorance to consider another viewpoint. At least I admit that false rape accusation are more than 2% and that victims of these false accusations need more support.
Steve,
it is not the fault of men you feel like this. you should be asking other women, feminist groups, and the media why they blow these things out of all proportion.
While I agree with you for the most part, do you really think that men have never and do not play a role in this. For example, and correct me if I'm wrong, aren't fathers more protective of their daughters than their sons? And once their daughters hit dating age...
And I don't know, I think both men and women pushed this idea that women are more physically vulnerable than men, and that's where this "fear" is originating from.
renee says
"And I think that you can't look beyond your bias and your own ignorance to consider another viewpoint. At least I admit that false rape accusation are more than 2% and that victims of these false accusations need more support."
7/30/2009
scott says, that seems quite reasonable!!
Renee said: "I admit that everyone from the media to parents paint this idea that females must be protected and that they must be careful at all times."
Excellent point, Renee. It's called "chivalry," and in an era when men and women are supposed to be equal, it's more destructive than feminism.
Chivalry is one thing, misplaced and misguided "ignorant chivalry" is another.
"How can you sit there and say how ALL rape victims should act after a crime is committed."
Where did you see me say that?
"Everyone's different and react differently to crimes committed against them."
Criminality has nothing to do with subjectivity.
"At least I admit that false rape accusation are more than 2% and that victims of these false accusations need more support"
Are you saying the McDowell and Kanin studies are wrong? Are you saying to yourself, "well...there's MRA stats and there's feminst stats, so the truth is somewhere between?"
If your thinking is along these lines, as I suspect it is, then you don't have a scientific bone in your body. Or for that matter a 'justice bone' either.
"What does that have anything to do in relation to what was posted in that the "crock" "
YOU made claims about her state of mind -whether presented as 'possibilities' or not, they are in fact claims. Therefore the burden is on YOU to prove they are true, or might be true. It is not up to people disagreeing with you, to DISPROVE what you have said. Not proving something's wrong doesn't prove it's right.
"How do you know anything didn't happen "
Please see the above. Also, I highly recomend you take some kind of 'Logic 101' course or 'Law 101' or something (I think paralegal programs have them, check with your community college). Even a math course might help you, especially discrete math.
"Yes I have asked a man for something, including directions. I don't believe ALL men are evil.."
Please examine your own wording carefully. It is as if you have said, "I'm not saying ALL golf-balls are white."
Let's say you only want to play with white golfballs. Then, the reason you don't examine golf-balls for color prior to paying your fee at the range, is because in fact, you KNOW there are extremely few red ones.
And you want us to believe, that your sixth sense you claim to have would allow you to predict these odd ones coming before they are dispensed?
Sorry, but like most people it appears you are incorrigibly corrupted by the media (not to mention by chivalrists like scott. he must be the same guy who threw out his MRA card in the other thread.)
SteveUK says,
"Women seem to enjoy frightening themselves by enjoying fantasys about evil men, but then as soon as a woman needs something from a man, she is capable of dropping the fantasy and excepting the help. "
Hey, they don't even need to expend the energy required for a fantasy. All that is required is a cruel twist of mind and a little sloppy thinking and immaturity.
In other words, the minimal qualities required to be a stupid pig.
I cant see chivalry lasting very much longer here in Britain.
women have pushing men beyond what is fair for a very long time.
and now because of 24 hour news, there is not a day that goes by without a new report of a woman falsely accusing and ruining a mans life, or a woman neglecting her children, or getting away with a crime when she should be punished.
Men are really starting to notice it here because its becoming to big to ignore, its constant.
Also, the women here seem to take a sadistic delight in goading men by telling them that they as a group are finished. occasionally there is a news story about how scientists have created artifical sperm (or something else), and women in this country become visibly overjoyed by telling men that they are finished as a group and are not needed anymore for the survival of the species. one woman actually said that to me 'you (men) are redundant.'
They say it in a sort of jokey way, but they are watching you for a reaction.
Valenti wrote a book? A future Maureen-Dowd-in-training, I assume. In which chapter does she advocate genocide (gendercide)?
Norm said..
Hey, they don't even need to expend the energy required for a fantasy. All that is required is a cruel twist of mind and a little sloppy thinking and immaturity.
In other words, the minimal qualities required to be a stupid pig.
That made me laugh, true though.
"women have pushing men beyond what is fair for a very long time."
same here in the U.S. It even goes to the level of taking advantage of guys who hold doors for them. A girl did this to me yesterday, so I compensated by shutting the door on her boyfriend, who was immediately following her. (I shut the door on him because he had a smirk on his face when she took advantage of me, so I used the opportunity to send BOTH of them a message.)
The smart-ass guy said something, but I couldn't quite make it out; I just said, "Excuse men, I don't know you" and walked away.
(note: it would have been better if I shut the door on the girl, which I would have done except she literally hopped through it while I was holding it.)
above should say "excuse me", not "excuse men".
Norm,
Where did you see me say that?
Well when I talked about the girl's possible mindset, you seem to shoot that down as me not implying common sense and saying it's feminist crock. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word "all", but how can you say that "no they can't possibly react that way" when you're not that person or have went through something like that?
Criminality has nothing to do with subjectivity.
If you don't mind could you elaborate on this more?
YOU made claims about her state of mind -whether presented as 'possibilities' or not, they are in fact claims. Therefore the burden is on YOU to prove they are true, or might be true. It is not up to people disagreeing with you, to DISPROVE what you have said. Not proving something's wrong doesn't prove it's right.
Now this is muddled. All I did was ask YOU to explain how you know it was "crock", if the "crock" you described was possible mindsets of rape victims. When it comes to this, the only way I can prove that someone's way of thinkig is true is if I can somehow read their minds, which is impossible. I'm just stating possibilities like you said. In discussions like these two people can think that other other is on the offense. So if someone asks you to explain yourself and your viewpoint, you should, that's called a discussion/debate/whatever. Like I said, I've read testimonials and topics about rape, but knowing you, you'll probably just disregard that. I explained why that way of thinking may be possible because you disputed it in the first place.
About the studies, all I'll say is that I'm leaning towards the MRA stats since there are inconsistencies. Anyway....
Please see the above.
All I was pointing out was that it could go both ways. When someone doesn't come forward it could be because something happened or because something didn't happen. We don't know. It's only logical. But it's common knowledge that not enough rape victims come forward and press charges.
Please examine your own wording carefully. It is as if you have said, "I'm not saying ALL golf-balls are white."
Wait. When I said that all men aren't evil, that's what I meant. Since most golf balls are white (I could be wrong, I don't play golf), are you equating white golfballs with evil men? Like I said, I could be completely wrong.
Perhaps I misunderstood your motive in you asking me that question about how I would I know if a guy has bad intentions. I thought you were accusing me of thinking that most men were bad. Truth is, in the end, none of us can tell whether one has bad intentions or not. What exactly were you trying to prove anyway? You're saying that there's this hysteria against men, but you ask me how I would know a guy is evil.
In fact, men have a lot more to fear from false allegations and the general misadric mindset, than do women who would be supposedly be victimized by the things all evil men commit. That is how far the whole thing has become skewed.
You're not going to get anybody to agree with you if you keep pushing this whole "my gender has more to fear than you gender", especially by using the word "supposedly". Both men and women have things that they go through.
"but how can you say that "no they can't possibly react that way" "
where did you see men say that?
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Whether or not a crime has been committed is not determined by the purported victim's personal experience, or their subjective view. Crimes have legal definitions. For example, if you walk down the street and drop a nickel, then a minute further down you turn around and see someone pick it up and pocket it, you may 'feel' you were robbed, but you weren't under the law (at least not where I live) - in other words, you weren't robbed. How you 'feel' is not the point.
Same for rape. Just becuase a woman 'feels' she was raped does not mean she was in fact raped.
"You're not going to get anybody to agree with you if you keep pushing this whole "my gender has more to fear than you gender"
first of all I'm not 'pushing' anything. ...on the other hand, this is the way feminists have made so much 'progress' - by claiming they have it worse than men.
At this point I feel compelled to ask: are you a troll? I must believe you're only pretending to be so ignorant.
"MRA stats"
there's no such thing as 'MRA stats', at least not on the boards I post on. Almost all of the guys on these go with the science, and even the ones who are not scientifically inclined, do not sit there and invent data (unlike feminists).
do you post somewhere else under the name 'jeana'? Just wondering.
should say,
'where did you see ME say that?"
Norm said...
Valenti wrote a book? A future Maureen-Dowd-in-training, I assume. In which chapter does she advocate genocide (gendercide)?
Here is something you might find interesting
http://www.mirror.co.uk/most-popular/2009/07/08/the-end-of-men-115875-21503346/
http://battlinbog.blog-city.com/at_male_matters_feminists_sexism__its_draconian_effect_on_me.htm
Here you will need to scroll down to read the interview with Mary Daly who is an advocate for "decontaminating the earth of almost all males". It is almost as if she is discussing a cure for a disease.
http://www.equityfeminism.com/articles/2002/mary-dalys-feminist-vision-of-gendercide/
This is Phyllis Schlafly's take on VAWA. She doesn't mince words.It may be an old article but, still an interesting read.
http://www.eagleforum.org/column/2005/july05/05-07-20.html
http://www.eagleforum.org/psr/2005/oct05/psroct05.html
Chivalrous Men and the Victim-Princess Complex
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I recently came across an article sporting the irresistible title, A Nation of Little Princesses. Author Christopher Healy explores the archetype of the princess, which he asserts “is one of the longest-lived in all of literary history.” [www.freepress.net/news/print.php?id=5557 ]
My first reaction was to think, “Here’s some Neanderthal guy trying to peddle outdated gender stereotypes.” But Healy points to the fact that the Disney Corporation has assembled a Princess brand consisting of eight animated film heroines including Cinderella, Snow White, Pocahontas, Belle of Beauty of the Beast, and others. In 2003 the Princess line racked up an astonishing $2.5 billion in sales, up from a mere $300 million in 2001.
And that’s just for starters. “We’ve gone beyond the dress-up and toys, and begun to look at the brand as a lifestyle, filling out all the other things girls need in life,” according to Mary Beech, Disney’s director of franchise management. Things girls need in life?
Healy, proud dad of a three-year-old girl, notes with an equal mix of astonishment and horror, “The ease and rapidity with which a princess obsession can take hold of a young girl’s psyche is mind-blowing.”
Eventually those little Jennifers and Bethanies grow up, go to college, and enroll in their first Women’s Studies course. There they learn that the kiss by their Prince Charming really represents non-consensual sexual assault, that Belle’s Beast is a closet bodice-ripper, and that the fable of the Princess talking to the Green Frog at the side of the well is an allegory of serial rape.
But the Women’s Studies gurus explain they can still make their dreams of tiaras and sequin-studded dresses come true: “Join the Sisterhood, and we’ll turn you into a real princess!”
According to the feminist fable, women were kept under heel for so many millennia that members of the fairer sex need to play “catch-up.” So now women should be the beneficiaries of an ever-expanding array of legal protections, government programs, commercial products, and lifestyle options. That’s the Victim-Princess Complex.
What princess who has just been betrayed by her Handsome Green Frog could resist that offer?
http://www.menstuff.org/columns/roberts/archivebak.html
http://www.menstuff.org/columns/roberts/archivebak.html
http://www.mensuck.com/extermination-of-man.php
http://standyourground.com/forums/index.php?action=printpage;topic=15711.0
I don't think much more needs to be said about the desires of radical feminists.
Sorry if I got off topic.
I checked the first link and it is one I have seen before. That fact that intelligent people are commenting on the article's website shows what we as a species have come too. (Not that people standing up for men in the comments are wrong, my point is just that this type stuff is being seriously discussed is pathetic. No, it is actually SICK. I am ashamed to be a human being right now. )
"But it's common knowledge that not enough rape victims come forward and press charges."
And it's also common knowledge that too many false claimants DO come forward to press charges.
Pierce,
And it's also common knowledge that too many false claimants DO come forward to press charges.
Of course, I don't dispute this.
Norm,
where did you see men say that?
I meant more like you implied it.
Whether or not a crime has been committed is not determined by the purported victim's personal experience, or their subjective view. Crimes have legal definitions....Same for rape. Just becuase a woman 'feels' she was raped does not mean she was in fact raped.
That has nothing to do with this conversation. I made a point to say "IF she was actually raped" when I was talking about how she could possibly react to the crime. The applies when I said this: "Everyone's different and react differently to crimes committed against them". I was only talking about those who actually had a crime committed against them.
first of all I'm not 'pushing' anything. ...on the other hand, this is the way feminists have made so much 'progress' - by claiming they have it worse than men.
Well, as you say, you may not be "pushing" the idea, but it seems to me that you yourself claim that:
In fact, men have a lot more to fear from false allegations and the general misadric mindset, than do women who would be supposedly be victimized by the things all evil men commit. That is how far the whole thing has become skewed.
And adding the word "supposedly" doesn't help your case. Point is, BOTH genders have their own issues and things that they go through.
At this point I feel compelled to ask: are you a troll? I must believe you're only pretending to be so ignorant.
Lol, no I am not a troll. If there is something I don't agree with and I feel strongly about it, I'm going to share my opinion. Just because I don't agree with you on some things doesn't make me a troll or ignorant. I may not see for myself what men go through but that doesn't make me ignorant either. If both was the case, I would consider you ignorant as well.
there's no such thing as 'MRA stats', at least not on the boards I post on
Well I called them "MRA stats" because you did. And if I recall, I think I've seen that phrased used before.
And no lol, I have never been 'jeana'. Just Renee.
"the boys were 8 and 9, and the girl was 11? I'd take a guess she initiated it, or was at least a willing participant."
"Boys 8 and 9 raping someone is pretty far fetched, but in this day and age...who knows anymore."
Yeah, Renee, who knows. But i do know that the girl was older than both of the boys she was involved in sex with, whoever intiated it. That makes HER the rapist.
If it was rape. But then the boys were underaged, so it was in fact rape.
", cops little or no interest in furthering false information of the kind related to rape. "
In fact, anon, they have a big interest in doing just that, if it gets them convictiosn. satts are what matter, much mre than justice. If you doubt that, it's just your female privelege talking and the protection form police misconduct it gives you.
"And anyway, we all know about true victim-blaming and the truely unfair judgment and ridicule that rape victims sometimes face."
Yes, especially when the victim is male and the rapist is female. We are all, we some of us here, are very aware of this.
"Pretend to be scared? Oh yeah it's so much fun to have to watch your drinks everytime you're out at a party or club so it doesn't get spiked, or to have to walk by yourself to your car in a dark area because noone is there to walk you, being sexual harrassed/assaulted/raped (because YES it really does happen)...."
Yes it is fun - it makes some people feel all fragile and dainty and feminine. You are right that it's a burden, and you probably are so far from engaing in this kind of bullshit that you think it's unlikley, but i can assure you, this mentality is not uncommon.
"I mean, a girl is always caution about going into a guys room period. Is there the same caution for boys going into a girl's room?"
Good question. simple answer. YES. All the time. Being raped by one person for 10 minutes or being locked up by a whole state for 10 years. Both are equally hrrible.
"And I don't know, I think both men and women pushed this idea that women are more physically vulnerable than men, and that's where this "fear" is originating from."
You're right. You do know pretty well.
"And no lol, I have never been 'jeana'. Just Renee."
Well, keep it up.
BTW, are you the Renee of Womanist Musings?
Yeah, Renee, who knows. But i do know that the girl was older than both of the boys she was involved in sex with, whoever intiated it. That makes HER the rapist. If it was rape. But then the boys were underaged, so it was in fact rape.
First of all, for it to be statitory rape, wouldn't the girl have to be MUCH older than 11 (more than 2 and 3 years older than the boys), IF she did initiated it or forced them? And IF SHE was raped by those boys, then the BOYS are the rapists, not the girl. That doesn't even make any sense to say that if she was raped, she'll still be the rapist, and it's very dangerous thinking. And I would think that 11 is underage too. I thought statitory rape involved a child and a adult?
Good question. simple answer. YES. All the time. Being raped by one person for 10 minutes or being locked up by a whole state for 10 years. Both are equally hrrible.
I see what you mean. I guess I've always had this idea that girls are taught to be careful, especially when dealing with the opposite sex, than boys (not like I agree with that). I get kind of sick hearing the "Boys are after one thing" speech. And the media doesn't help either.
No, I'm not Renee from Womanist Musings.
" If you doubt that, it's just your female privelege talking and the protection form police misconduct it gives you"
Guy maybe you're new around here so I'll say it gently: If there's one person on this board who doesn't believe in female privilege, it is ME.
Renee,
"I meant more like you implied it"
No...you inferred it.
"That has nothing to do with this conversation."
You asked me to elaborate on my statement about criminality and subjectivity and that is what I did. It appears you are having trouble keeping track of the conversation.
"it's common knowledge that not enough rape victims come forward and press charges."
do you have any (reliable) stats on that? If it is 'common knowledge' it is because feminists have been misleading us for decades.
It is too bad that when it comes to information, you are unable to distinguish shit from shinola.
You asked me to elaborate on my statement about criminality and subjectivity and that is what I did. It appears you are having trouble keeping track of the conversation.
No, it seems that you tend to add in this into the conversation that has nothing to do with the topic. Yes I asked you to elaborate on it, but once you did, your statement explaining criminality and subjectivity, hence criminality and subjectivity itself, had no bearing in this conversation.
No...you inferred it
I inferred it based on what you said basically. Things like me describing the girl's possible mental state as being "the same old crock" and me being unable to use common sense in determining her "normal reaction". As if there is such a thing as applying common sense in finding out how someone thinks when something horrible happens to them, in something so abstract as a person's thoughts and mental state to a crime. Are you kidding?
do you have any (reliable) stats on that? If it is 'common knowledge' it is because feminists have been misleading us for decades.
Well I found this:
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/1511/context/archive
From 1993 to 1995, only 30.8 percent of rape-and-sexual-assault victims reported their attacks, according to the bureau's annual National Crime Victimization Survey, released on August 24. Last year, more than 53 percent came forward.
The National Crime Victimization Survey interviews a representative sample of the population--asking what crimes they suffered and how many of them they reported--and extrapolates those figures to the total national population.
The percentage of rapes reported flat-lined near 30 percent from 1993 through 1999, spiking above the 45 percent mark in 2000 and dipping slightly in 2001 to about 40 percent.
Reporting for other types of violent crime also increased since 1993. For example, 71 percent of robberies were reported in 2002, versus 60 percent in 1993. Overall, reporting of all types of violent crime increased 6 percentage points since 1993, from 43 percent to 49 percent.
But the increase in rape reports outstripped the general trend. From 1993 to 2002, for instance, the reporting of rape rose more than 20 percentage points, while reported robberies rose by a much smaller 8 percentage points.
Now knowing you, you might take this with a grain of salt since, it's written by a woman and posted on "Women's eNews", as if women are unable to not be biased.
But then again, you'll probably say it's all because of false rape reporting. While that may be partly true, I'm glad that people are being encouraged to come forward (when it actually happens, I shouldn't have to keep pointing that out, but oh well).
So I admit it's more than I thought. So sue me.
Did you want like a research paper or something?
I got a question though. I found this quote:
The Bureau of Justice statistics show that 60 percent of sexual assaults are not reported, and a national victimization study found that only 5 percent of college women reported to campus law enforcement.
One common complaint is if they aren’t reported, then how can you come up with an exact number. Well if someone says 71% of robberies were reported, wouldn't that make the other 29% represent the assaults that weren't reported?
It is too bad that when it comes to information, you are unable to distinguish shit from shinola.
And it's too bad that not only are you biased, but you have very ridged ideas on people's thought process after trauma.
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