It matters not one bit that some angry members of the gender-feminist/sexual-assault-industrial complex are going to read this title and brand us, for about the one-millionth time, as "rape apologists." Even if they don't know any better, such comments are uttered with such reckless disregard for the truth that they are akin to actionable libel. No sane and reasonable person could disagree with what I am about to write -- which means the aforementioned will.
Now let's make clear something that a more politically correct writer would have said at the outset instead of taking a cheap shot at an easy target: the bad guys are the ones at fault. Rape is rape, and rapists should not receive any mitigated sentence merely because a woman was drinking, or flirting, or doing whatever. Every rational thinker should agree that women have no moral responsibility when a man rapes her, any more than a convenience store clerk has when he is robbed and beaten.
But one of the sacred mantras of the gender-feminist/sexual-assault-industrial complex is that to even suggest ways women can prevent rape is "victim blaming." As one sexual assault advocate, Walker Thornton, Executive Director of Sexual Assault Resource Agency, recently said: "I'm constantly asked what women can do to prevent sexual assault. Not, what can we do as a community to help young men not commit sexual assault. We're still blaming women." She continued: "If I go on TV and say don't go home late at night alone, don't talk on the cell phone, be aware of your surroundings, I fail to say, there's a man out there attacking women. That's victim-blaming, and it let's them off the hook."
This, of course, distorts how most people view rape beyond all recognition. And, yes, attitudes like this foment an atmosphere that could make rape more likely.
No one is letting rapists off the hook, except perhaps for the most vile souls among us, and they are vastly outnumbered by everyone else. Every story we report where there is an over-reaction to a rape claim involves a male who can't control his anger when told that a loved one has been raped. It is quite possible that men detest rape more than women. Men, as a class, do not excuse rape. Just as men, as a class, do not excuse murderers. Or burglars. Or any other criminals.
Of course, some of the same people who cry "victim-blaming" do excuse one class of criminals -- can you guess which one? That's right, false rape accusers. And we have the posts on this site to prove it. But I digress.
Now there's another type of alleged "victim blaming" that deserves mention, even though it's really not "victim" blaming. Sometimes people (you know, the alleged "victim blamers") suggest that a purported rape victim might have sent out mixed signals to her "rapist." And gee, that's been known to happen. See our previous post on a study to that effect. In that circumstance, these "victim blamers" are questioning whether the encounter really was rape. As harsh as that sounds, they are, at times, right. The legal test for rape is whether a reasonable person in the position of the alleged rapist would have understood that the other party assented to sex based on all the surrounding circumstances. People manifest consent to sex in innumerable ways, by words and conduct. We haven't yet reached the point where they sign a written document, but it's coming. To say that rape occurred merely because the woman declares it was rape is not accurate. Her secret, subjective whims, desires or wishes make no difference -- all that matters are her outward manifestations of assent. As painful as I know this is for some to hear, those sorts of "victim blamers" might be wondering if it was really rape for good reason.
Now, coupled with the "victim blaming" accusation is a related, even more vile, phenomenon. It's the move to blame men as a class for rape, and to suggest that they have a greater responsibility to prevent rape than innocent women. This is absurdly sexist and seeks to hold males as a gender responsible for a crime that only a tiny percentage of men commit (and, yes, even some women rape, too). It is condemning an entire gender based on the malefactions of a few. In any other context, we have words for that sort of thing -- "bigotry" comes to mind. The implicit suggestion is that a culture of hypermasculinity gives rise to rape, so even men who don't rape have a duty to stop it.
This, of course, is nonsense. Yet, we have a little cottage industry of speakers who go around the country -- mostly men, sadly enough -- whose financial interest depends on blaming young men in general for a "culture of rape" and insisting that innocent young men (but not innocent young women) have a responsibility to somehow stop the rapists. Even if their shtick were not so financially crass and disingenuous on its face, their premise is utter and complete horseshit -- that young men (who don't rape) engage in conduct degrading to women -- they consume porn, for example -- that creates a rape culture. As but one example of the vacuity of this argument, Dr. Christopher Ferguson of Texas A&M, someone who actually knows what he's talking about, debunks these myths. His comments about rape are especially illuminating: ". . . pornography is no more linked to rape than violent games are to violent crimes. Researchers have long known that rape rates have gone down in the U.S. as pornography consumption has increased. Rapists typically consume less pornography and are exposed to it later than non-rapist men." Now please understand, I am opposed to porn for other other reasons. But to suggest that porn consumption falls somewhere on a rape continuum is a lie.
Singling out young men who do not rape as being responsible to stop rape, while excusing young women who consciously put themselves in situations where rape is more likely to occur, is asymmetrical gender blaming. Newsflash: rapists are responsible for rape. Period. Not innocent women -- even the multitude who drink and purposefully arouse men; and not innocent men, even the multitude who like to be aroused by women.
But it is a truth that is painfully politically incorrect that women can prevent rape a hell of a lot easier than innocent men by taking steps to avoid putting themselves in danger with the bad guys.
For one thing, stop the underage drinking and sex play with men they don't know. When rape occurs in that situation, innocent men can't stop it. Only the rapists can stop it, and, yes, the innocent women could have taken steps to reduce it's likelihood.
But you see, it's much easier to scream "victim blaming" and to shame innocent young college men into thinking they must be "part of the solution" than to actually work to reduce rape.
It's no more "victim blaming" to tell women to be careful than when my grandmother used to warn me not to walk through certain "bad" neighborhoods at night. When I got beat up one time because I disregarded her advice, she was the first to crow, "See? I told you!" That didn't mean that my grandmother excused the kids who battered me.
In any event, save your angry comments about this post because they are hypocritical. It's all about who delivers the message, let's be honest. A site like ours that's incorrectly pegged an MRA and a rape apologist site can spread advice to women to be careful of the rapists, and an angry gaggle of gender feminist hens will cluck cluck cluck "Victim-blaming! Victim-blaming!" But if a sexual assault advocate sponsors a program on female self-defense where some physically fit woman teaches other women how to kick a guy in the balls, that's "empowerment!"
You want to reduce rape? Take measures to deter the false rape accusers so women who are raped will be believed, and start teaching young women to avoid putting themselves in danger. And, yes, keep teaching women to kick the rapists in the balls.
Funny, I get the idea that some financially interested members of the gender-feminist/sexual-assault-industrial complex are less interested in reducing rape than in fomenting hysteria about it. I can't imagine why.
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50 comments:
Why are you starting off on such a weak, defensive note? They're the liars. They're the bad guys. Don't apologize before telling the truth. That's the mistake that Sacks makes.
We're dealing with the most insane, dishonest legal system on earth. It doesn't matter if some feminist psychotics call this blog "rape apologism." Their crimes against men greatly outweight anything that men have ever done to women.
The feminists are 100% on the side of false rape accusers. The system is so biased that there is little reason to believe any woman who cries rape without DNA to back it up.
"You guys are a bunch of rape apologists!" - Michael Nifong
"Why are you starting off on such a weak, defensive note? They're the liars."
Hey, Anonymous -- I defy you to try to find a more effective advocate for the falsely accused on the internet than we are. I am not answering to feminists but to middle America -- people who might stumble on this site. Newsflash: we hate rapists. It doesn't hurt me to tell the truth, and it doesn't hurt our advocacy here to repeat that. Some of our people need to be reminded once in a while that sometimes the rape accusers are telling the truth.
You speak of libel, when folks twist and pervert the truth, for their own gains.
The first perversion that has enabled the mass hysteria that is prejudicing against innocent men/boys....Is in Fact..The "gender feminist / law enforcement misinformation Alliance".
Very little will change, until this first perversion is corrected, for no honest dialogue will take place, and we will not see the true perspective...until the public is fed the truth.
Who gave police jurisdictions the constitutional authority to redefine what the meaning of is, is, in order to manufacture statistics???.. I believe these are actions that are beyond the operational charters for the law enforcement community to be engaging in.
Hence ...unconstitutional
There is a difference between blaming victims and holding all men responsible for the actions of a few.
"Victim blaming" does not refer to holding all men accountable. It refers to people saying things along the lines of "she was wearing very little clothing, so she deserved what she got," or often statements less obviously problematic than that (but just as sexist). Victim blaming not only shames victims who did nothing to deserve it, but also most men, who are being unfairly mischaracterized as sex-crazed apes who can't control themselves
So I really don't see where you're getting this from. Victim blaming does happen, and it hurts men as a class as much as it hurts women. Vociferously arguing that a victim was not responsible for the crime against her is not the same as claiming that all men are potential aggressors. When did that logical leap occur?
See, I don't understand where you get this idea that men have a "greater responsibility" to "prevent" rape from. I see it as getting both men and women involved since rape is still unfortunately seen by society as a female issue (even though males are raped too). I also see it as a way to bring to light some of the social misconceptions, stereotypes, and misogynistic mindset that's known to be connected to rape.
I agree with almost everything you said here though. The thing is, noone can prevent a crime from happening, only lower the chances of it occuring. Only the criminal can prevent it. I have no problem with women taking percautions, but here is where true victim-blaming can sneak up. It's one thing to know that the victim should've been careful if she was indeed careless, but it's another if you blame her actions for being raped instead of holding the rapist responsible for the rape (yes there are people who do that). Basically what Grenadier said. To constantly focus on what the victim did or wear everytime she talks about her rape isn't doing anyone any favors. I don't see this happening with the victim of any other crime. I know I've mentioned this before but PLEASE google "The Rape of Mr. Smith". That is an example of TRUE victim-blaming.
For one thing, stop the underage drinking and sex play with men they don't know.I see what you're trying to say, but by focusing on only females to stop underage drinking and sex play, that's borderline victim-blaming I think (unless I read that wrong). And call me dense, but what exactly do you mean by "sex play"?
And yes I have read articles and testimonials in which men and women took action and stopped a rape from either happening or in progress. In both situations it was at a party.
Grenadier : "Victim blaming not only shames victims who did nothing to deserve it, but also most men, who are being unfairly mischaracterized as sex-crazed apes who can't control themselves."
You have espoused a feminist straw man (straw woman?) that sure sounds like it should appeal to men, but in fact, isn't true, doesn't make sense, and is disingenuous. I'll give you an illustration: When a father chides his daughter who was raped while wearing very little clothing and drinking in a strange man's room at 3 o'clock in the morning, the father is not suggesting that ALL MEN are sex-crazed apes. Nor is he "excusing" the rapist. I promise you, the father's instinct would be to murder -- and I mean literally murder -- the rapist. By chiding his daughter, the father is suggesting that A PARTICULAR RAPIST was a sex-crazed ape, not "all men," and that he, the father, is not happy his daughter put herself in a situation where a RAPIST was able to take advantage of her.
The vast majority of men would not take advantage of a young woman in that condition, and no reasonable person ever, ever, suggests that they would.
The problem is that sometimes, young women happen to come across an isolated sex-crazed ape, so -- yes, Grenadier, they need to be careful. Why does every normal person on earth "get" that except the members of the feminist community?
Now there's another type of alleged "victim blaming" that's really not victim blaming. Sometimes people (you know, the "victim blamers") suggest that a purported rape victim might have sent out mixed signals to her "rapist." And gee, that's been known to happen. A lot. In that circumstance, these "victim blamers" are questioning whether the encounter really was rape. As harsh as that sounds, they might be right. The legal test for rape is whether a reasonable person in the position of the alleged rapist would have understood that the other party assented to sex based on all the surrounding circumstances. People manifest consent to sex in innnumerable ways, by words and conduct. We haven't yet reached the point where they sign a written document, but it's coming. To say that rape occurred merely because the woman declares it was rape is not accurate. Her secret, subjective whims or wishes make no difference -- all that matters are her outward manifestions of assent. As painful as I know this is to hear, those sorts of "victim blamers" might be wondering if it was really rape for good reason.
You know what, Grenadier? We all wish the rapists would disappear. And murderers. And burglars. And teachers who molest students. But we've always had them. I have a burglar alarm in my house. When the burglar alarm salesman shamed me into buying it after I was burglarized, was that "victim blaming"? If it was, it was good for me.
It is astounding to most people that even suggesting a young woman should take precautions to avoid being sexually assaulted could be construed as "victim blaming." Only in the politicized world of rape does such anti-common sense, topsy turvy thinking prevail. Would you encourage young women to put themselves in the situation I've described above? I would hope not, but I fear you would.
As for your comment that victim blaming doesn't mean holding all men accountable, I suspect you aren't familiar with the cottage industry of rape advocates whose job it is to shame innocent young men into thinking they are responsible for the rape culture -- you know, because they might look at a Playboy or some such thing. Their shtick is that we mustn't blame the women who behave in the manner I described above because that's victim blaming, but it's entirely appropriate to blame an entire gender -- even the vast majority who would never dream of raping.
How about we all blame the rapists? And how about we help young women protect themselves against the rapists?
A woman who is raped is never responsible. If it was rape. But if I'm her father, I'm going to chide her for not being careful.
Renee, I appreciate your comments, and I pretty much agree. I take exception to this: " . . . by focusing on only females to stop underage drinking and sex play, that's borderline victim-blaming I think."
OK, so what do we do? Put up signs to tell felons to stop committing felonies.
The reason we don't do that is, it doesn't work.
See, we need to start thinking about "innocent people" and "criminals." Not "females" and "males." We tell people who might be victimized to be careful of the felons. To tell "males" generally not to drink and engage in sex play suggests that average guys can "slip" and become a rapist. There is no evidence for that, and its grossly insulting to an entire gender. Innocent males can't stop it. Males as a class don't rape. Rapists rape.
Only the rapist is responsible for the rape, not the victim. But, gee, I personally hate to see any young woman raped who could have avoided it.
There is no need to say "Surprise, we hate rapists!" When you do that you are caving in to the feminists who maintain that punishing rape is the only moral priority, which makes it acceptable to give false accusers a free ride. Rapists are already being punished on the same level as murderers. False accusers are the criminals who are not being punished at all.
When you state your case apologetically, you are already surrendering before the battle has even started. Protecting innocent men is MORE IMPORTANT than punishing rapists. More harm is being done to society BY THE SYSTEM than by the handful of men who really do commit violent crimes.
Anonymous, I've made a hell of a lot of money in my life advocating on behalf of companies every reader here has heard of, and I'm going to stick to advocating the way I've always done it -- by telling the truth. In this instance, when I write a post that tries to debunk a myth that everybody has heard and accepts because they haven't thought about it, there's no fucking way, excuse my language, I'm going to come across as a pig who thinks rape is OK.
Because I'm going to tell you something that we don't talk about much here, and maybe should -- a lot of women who hear about our site are initally skeptical about what we're doing here -- and for reasons that are not at all loony.
Yes, you read that right. And maybe I'll burn in MRA hell for saying it. I wish you hadn't started this, but I'm going to put it out there: we all need to take a step back and put ourselves in their shoes when we are trying to get the word out about the falsely accused, because it's important to have empathy if we want to convince people we're right. Until very recently in most states of this country, it was legal for men to rape your wives. Now I know that the vast majority of husbands wouldn't do it, but that's wrong on any level. It's degrading -- humiliating to an entire gender. Moreover, until the 70s, most rape trials in this country devolved into a trial of the accuser's sexual morals and very few rapists were ever convicted.
A lot of women remember those days, Anonymous. And they feel they've made a lot of progress in moving away from them, and one of the things they always hear is that it's wrong to "victim-blame."
I am sensitive to the fact that they don't want to go backwards. Does it hurt the falsely accused if I acknowledge that we share the same goal they share -- put the real rapists away? Hell no! On the contrary, it shows that I see the whole fucking picture, Anonymous -- it shows that I "get" it. Since I see the whole fucking picture, I see that the big problem today is this epidemic of false rape claims. And it's because political correctness has run amok -- the pendulum has swung too far the other way.
I've said many times that I wish we could have one website that fairly treats rape and false rape claims. We have plenty of the former and virtually none of the latter, so that's why we have this site that only focuses on half the problem. But make no mistake, it really is only half the problem.
No, false accusations of rape aren't "only half of the problem." They are the whole problem; a problem infinitely worse than rape ever was.
You can't fine tune the system. You either allow women to accuse any man they've ever slept with of raping them without a shred of proof or you don't.
Sorry, but the answer really is to "go backwards" to a time when due process and the presumption of innocence prevailed over hysteria. MRAs need to ask themselves if they're going to realistically pursue a sane justice system, along the lines of what already exists in almost all other industrialized countries, or fight this hopping on one leg, trying to establish a feminist-approved utopia.
Anonymous, with all due respect, I am starting to think you are a feminist troll trying to get me to utter something hateful about women.
The other industrialized nations are worse than we are -- do you see what is going on in the UK? It's a Salem witch hunt to jack up rape convictions. They have radical feminists writing studies on the prevalence of rape.
You would not allow women even to accuse men of rape? That would be illegal in your Utopia? What if a guy actually raped a woman? Tough for her?
And rape isn't a problem? At all? Only false rape claims are a problem? Did you ever have a loved one who was raped? Well, I have. Your comment would be offensive except I realize you are speaking with a zeal for men and boys falsely accused -- and, yes, I share that zeal.
I've said over and over that the system has adopted all manner of double standards that are hurting the presumed innocent. We need to focus on the falsely accused in at least a half-dozen areas. But as for rape itself, the criminal act -- that's still a problem. Girls who are raped still need our love and counseling.
False rape adovcates need to adopt the tactic that feminists don't understand: we are not advocates for a gender. We are advocates for what's right.
Some of the greatest advocates the false rape movement has are women -- Wendy McElroy, Christina Hoff-Summers and Heather MacDonald come to mind. They aren't on our side because we think it's OK for husbands to rape their wives or to introduce irrelevant evidence that the accuser slept with a guy last year.
Read KC Johnson and Stuart Taylr's "Until Proven Innocent" -- the chapter on false claims in general. What I'm saying isn't some feminist apologia. It's widely accepted by every fair-minded person. The system did need correction to help rape victims, but it was corrected with overkill and lies -- e.g., the two percent canard -- and it's gone way too far the other way, and it badly needs correcting.
No, I wouldn't allow women to FALSELY accuse men of rape. I think you lost track of the word FALSE there, as the feminists always do.
I'm letting this discussion go, but answer one question: can you think of any special interest group that wins by deliberately highlighting the other side? You don't win by doing that. You win by choosing sides and then advocating hard for your side, not by kissing up to the other side -- especially when the other side presents nothing but lies, bogus statistics and stereotyping.
And no matter what you do, they will still call you rape apologists. You can't reason with unreasonable people. If you think otherwise then talk to the innocent men who have been railroaded under these wonderful feminist laws that you support.
dI am not "deliberately highlighting the other side," friend -- I am opposed to rape and I am opposed to false rape claims. You should be, too. They are both wrong. For you to suggest there are "sides" -- those concerned about rape, and those concerned about false rape claims -- is exactly what the feminists say about our site. I advocate against false rape claims because that "side" needs a hell of a lot of help right now. The rape "side" doesn't.
And if you ever want to win the hearts and souls of middle America, we need to quit preaching to the choir and speak to them as reasonable men. And it's not reasonable to talk about rape and false rape claims as "sides" like we're picking up softball teams.
The other industrialized nations are worse than we are -- do you see what is going on in the UK?
The UK is nothing compared to the US when it comes to witchhunting. Convictions rates are almost non-existent and men don't have to worry about getting life sentences based solely on the word of a liar.
And it's not reasonable to talk about rape and false rape claims as "sides" like we're picking up softball teams.
Are the feminists reasonable? No. Did they win the hearts and souls of Americans? Yes. How often do they repeat the fact that false accusations of rape are wrong? Never.
So why do you want to preface everything you say about false rape accusations by stating unnecessarily that rape is wrong? That's ridiculous. And even worse than that, even as you complain about being called a rape apologist -- you keep implying that I'm one! But whoever said that rape shouldn't be punished?
You don't win battles if you can't even choose a side, and this is very much a battle. You've never been falsely accused of a crime if you think it's anything else.
Oh, my, oh, my, anonymous. I don't know what set you off because you seem to have a problem that I can't put my finger on.
This site doesn't entertaint the notion that persons concerned about false rape claims are at odds with rape victims. That's barbaric.
And, yes, I've been falsely accused.
Pierce, carry on the way you have been, you know the approach that works for you, and you're work is extremely important to alot of folks.
How are we not at odds with them, Pierce? We want a system based on a real presumption of innocence for defendents and their advocates want one based on feminist stereotypes. Those interests conflict. To think otherwise is silly.
The feminists don't even want false accusers to go to prison when they are definitely guilty and have already committed other offenses, so how is that not at odds with MRAs? What is "barbaric" is the system we have now.
Anonymous, this debate ends here and now. Go re-read the post. You have judged it unfairly and have hijacked these comments to create division where it's unwarranted.
There is not ONE word in defense of "feminists" in that post. It is filled with criticisms of feminists. We say that rape VICTIMS -- not feminists, and not accusers -- VICTIMS -- are not responsible for being raped. Nor are innocent young men shamed by their indoctrination responsible for rape. Our implicaton is that the VICTIMS may have been stupid, and perhaps might have avoided the rape, but the rapist remains responsible for his rape.
I'll repeat: this site doesn't entertaint the notion that persons concerned about false rape claims are at odds with RAPE VICTIMS. That's barbaric. Feminists are a different story.
This "debate" is ended because I could have been answering a lot of email from guys and their mothers looking for advice on false rape claims.
Get over it.
Other anonymous, you must be reading a differnt blog. That was a hell of a post, Pierce. The other reader is confusing feminists with girls actually raped.
I don't think that rape victims are responsible for what happens to them, either.
Maybe I overreacted; having read the post again I see now that it's a lot tougher than I initially thought. I'm just SO SICK of MRAs playing footsie with feminists...
I can't think of anyone who has come even close to Pierce and The Archivist in bringing the issue of false rape accusation to public attention. The facts speak for themselves, and the arguments are well thought out. For every feminist propagandist who dares utter "no women would ever lie about a thing like that", we can easily respond "go look up false rape society - women are lying about it every day".
In my book, that's a huge asset.
Think about the value of that asset before ticking off its creator for not doing things as you would do them.
"Her secret, subjective whims, desires or wishes make no difference -- all that matters are her outward manifestations of assent"
This *MUST* be true. People have desires that they don't with to act on, and this must be respected.
I'm married. If I want to shag the guy at work - and we all have an occasional desire for someone other than our spouse - and I don't, because I respect my marital commitment too much, it isn't adultery.
If my thoughts are enough to justify the deed, then ideas such as fidelity, trust, etc, must be thrown out.
"If I go on TV and say don't go home late at night alone, don't talk on the cell phone, be aware of your surroundings, I fail to say, there's a man out there attacking women. That's victim-blaming, and it let's them off the hook."
okay. So I guess telling a night shift convenience store clerk to keep the inside locked after midnight, is victim blaming - he should instead be allowed to keep it open, while we stand around and shout "there are robbers out there!!"
oh yeah I forgot, rape is a special crime so logic doesn't apply.
Right, Norm. It's victim blaming to tell someone he or she can't live their life as if there were no bad people.
"Think about the value of that asset before ticking off its creator for not doing things as you would do them."
Thanks for the kind words, anonymous, but I don't want to discourage people from pointing out where we're wrong. The problem here was that a reader didn't understand that our support for actual rape victims (the vast majority of whom are not "feminists") is not an apology to radical feminists, nor is it trying to curry their favor. I can't have the guys who rely on us thinking we've sold them out, so I reacted strongly.
Our blog is aimed not only at the guys versed in this area and also at middle America. For the latter, nuance and a full appreciation for all sides of the issue is necessary to make people understand out position isn't some loony toons "hate women" site -- that we're completely reasonable. And I don't want this site to encourage men to want to see actual rapists escape justice. We don't need to become a mirror image of the radical feminists -- who were openly disgusted when the three Duke lacrosse boys were declared "innocent." I will not stoop to their level.
I agree largely with what you're saying: The innocent should be prepared to protect themselves, because no matter what, there will be Bad Guys out there to murder/rape/mug/etc them.
But there's one other thing I haven't seen mentioned here: Just as victims might not have known how to avoid rape, rapists don't always know that what they're doing is rape.That's where educating young adults about what rape is and what it isn't comes in handy. When people say things like "We have to step up as a society of young men blah blah blah," they're unfairly characterizing rapists as "men," but what they're trying to say is "Educating people about what rape is and why it is wrong and what you can do to avoid being a rapist is more important than telling potential victims how to avoid being attacked."
The favorite example of those people tends to be that frat boys should know that they are using someone else's body in a morally reprehensible way when they have sex with that passed-out-drunk freshman girl, and they should know that they can be held legally responsible for it.
But everyone should know this. Young people who are starting to be sexually active should learn that pushing someone into performing an act they don't want to is NOT okay, and that just because that person ends up succumbing and doing it doesn't mean that they were okay with it. Just because someone is showing a lot of skin or flirting doesn't mean that they're ready to go all the way. Both genders should know this. Men are often forced into acts they didn't want to perform, too.
Everyone should know, if they are attacked on the street, how to get that evidence to the police and make a strong case- and also that if they do attack someone, they can and probably will be held responsible.
Does this mean that rapees can now yell "Rape!" instead of "Fire?" Legend has it, no one will come running if they hear the word "rape." I think that's completely bullshit.
Sonia, what you are saying is a given. I have frequently written about the need for young people to understand the legal definition of consent, and what it really means -- as opposed to a radical gender feminist's screwball idea of consent.
You only go half-way. We are constantly beating up on young men. Young women need to be taught what consent is, too. A recent study shows that women are hard-wired to send out mixed signals when it comes to consent. See here. Sometimes men misinterpret these signals as consent -- and, yes, the man's interpretation might very well be reasonable. And sometimes the man proceeds further than the woman secretly desires -- and then, she regrets having gone there -- and blames the man for misreading her. That's not rape, and she needs to know that.
Another recent study shows that women have greater remorse than men about one-night stands. See here.
Moreover, one of the common motives cited by experts for false rape claims is "remorse after an impulsive sexual fling . . . ." "Until Proven Innocent: Political Correctness and the Shameful Injustices of the Duke Lacrosse Rape Case," S. Taylor, K.C. Johnson at 375 (2007).
The bottom line? Young unmarried women are generally more reluctant to have sex (for obvious reasons -- they could get pregnant), and this reluctance manifests itself in mixed signals and remorse and, yes, even false rape claims.
When we have college sex indoctrination, wouldn't it make sense, instead of just shaming college males (you cite the stereotypical frat boys) to also teach these aforementioned facts to college females? And emphasize that they have a responsibility to communicate clearly -- that the guy can't be expected to read their minds, and their mixed signals sometimes are reasonably misconstrued as consent. And warn them that they likely won't be as happy as the guy after-the-fact, and that this often leads to remorse and false rape claims.
Specialkake, we feature stories here constantly where Good Samaritans come to a young woman's rescue. Moreover, virtually every male accused of rape (even falsely) suffers a stigma unlike any other crime. That's because the very accusation is automatically believed by most people.
Pierce, I completely agree with you that both young men and young women need to know about consent. That's why I used ungendered pronouns except when I was referring specifically to sentiments I was attributing to someone else. I cited the frat boys as an example of what is usually cited, and then provided other, non-gendered examples. Women often perform acts that would be "rape" if a man had committed them, and for some reason, it's okay for them to do it because the guy must have wanted it or (so they say, not knowing anything about male anatomy) how could he have had an erection? THAT is rape apologism and victim blaming in its purest form.
When I say "... they're unfairly characterizing rapists as 'men,' but what they're trying to say is 'Educating people about what rape is and why it is wrong and what you can do to avoid being a rapist is more important than telling potential victims how to avoid being attacked,'" what I mean is "They're going about it halfway, but they've got the right idea." I'm sorry if that was unclear.
Sonia, I appreciate the clarification. I think that sexual assault education needs to inject a dose of honesty that's sadly lacking today -- and the honesty is that there is often a disconnect between the sexes because they are not the same in the sex department.
Testosterone is proven to enhance the male sex drive but for some reason, that's a dirty secret that everybody in the world knows except the folks teaching this stuff on college campuses.
Women have more to lose from sex (putting aside the draconian child support rules that jail men for falling behind, even when they lose their jobs -- but I digress). As a result, women are more reluctant to have sex; they do send out mixed signals; they do experience greater remorse; and sometimes they conflate feeling "used" with rape. Men may be similarly used but are more likely to construe it as a good time.
And let's start teaching what consent really is, not what we'd like it to be in a perfect world. Consent is as I've described it in my post. It need not be verbal or enthustiastic - some sexual assault counselors are teaching that consent must be enthusiastic. Whatever that means. Persons in a committed relationship do things for each other with regularity out of love and sometimes, perhaps often, without all that much enthusiasm. Some people rarely express "enthusiasm" about anything. When a woman is trying to get pregnant, her partner often has sex out of obligation even when it's not especially convenient and often when he is not especially "enthusiastic." Has he been raped since he gave into her verbal desires without being "enthusiastic"? No sane person would suggest that, but by this inane "enthusiastic" standard that is the only logical conclusion.
And women sometimes fake both "enthusiasm" and orgasms, often because a couple's sex drives are not in sync (and that's another dirty secret we're not allowed to talk about -- yes, it's true, men want sex more, sometimes a lot more) and because she's more interested in fostering a long-term relationship than having a momentary sexual experience. In such circumstances, if the guy knew the truth, he may or may not want to have sex. Is a woman's faked enthusiasm that induces sex a kind of rape of the man?
Bottom line: we can reduce rape and foster much healthier relationships by depoliticizing all these issues.
"Anonymous, with all due respect, I am starting to think you are a feminist troll trying to get me to utter something hateful about women."
Pierce, you're giving her too much credit. She's merely trying to make us look bad by posting her vile stuff so then she can point her sisters, as well as the ignorant public, to her own posts, while saying, "look at some of the disgusting things those mra's are saying!!" That's why she posts anonymously.
Notice in this case she is shooting herself in the foot, because in your responses to her you are being (of course) quite reasonable and cool-headed, so people viewing our site will see mra's don't "tolerate rape" or some such nonsense.
Plus you've called her on her troll-ness.
One way I look at the whole 'victim blaming' issue is like this. You have a guy who runs a convenience store in a seedy area.
As a matter of precaution, he installs a plastic barrier dealy so he doesn't get robbed. No one's gonna blame him for erecting it - but most people are gonna think he's a smart cookie for decreasing the option of getting robbed.
Women need to start thinking in a similar manner - What do I need to do to reduce the chance of getting attacked? It's not victim blaming, it's just common sense.
I used to tell my ex-gf to call a taxi or, if she didn't have money for one, to call me to come pick her up when she went out. I just wanted to make sure she got home safe. She always insisted that she would be fine and she could look after herself.
One Sunday morning, I got a call I'll never forget. Guess what happened....
Thanks, Norm. The voice of reason as always.
And Mark, I am pretty sure I know what happened. Good illustration.
At bottom, what Grenadier's attitude shows is that she really is NOT interested in keeping women from getting raped. She is not interested in women's welfare per se.
She is only interested in being persecutory of men, and in alieving women of any and all responsiblity for ANY type of wrongdoing, either actual or potential.
There is obviously a big difference between the two. It's kind of like a cop who goes after two robbers, just to cover his ass in case anyone else is watching. He's not really interested in fighting crime per se, or in the public's welfare.
Right, Norm. The entire debate is silly. The radicals are upset because they think that when men tell women to "be careful" about being raped, we are ignoring the real problem -- the (male) rapists. Their very premise is inane and disingenuous. Men DO care about rape; by telling women to be careful, we are trying to protect women and stop the rapists.
And I do "get" the argument about how it's wrong to blame a woman for being raped. Neither nuns nor prostitutes ever, ever deserve to be raped. The rapist is the only one morally responsible for that crime -- not the woman and not the male gender as a whole. My point is that innocent men can't stop the rapists when a woman puts herself in a situation where the risk of rape is enhanced, but some people have taken the whole victim blaming argument to the next absurd level. Not only must we never tell women to be careful, we must shame innocent young men who would never rape into thinking they are part of the problem unless they attend some dopey program telling young men how vile they are. Newsflash: the rapists never attend these programs, dumbasses. But you've got a nice little gimmick going there.
The feminists could, however, prevent false rape accusations. But they won't because they want more of them.
Archivist,
Like I said, I may have read that wrong, but this sentence,
"For one thing, stop the underage drinking and sex play with men they don't know."...seem directed at women. I think he should have phrased it as
"stop underage drinking and sex play with people they don't know".
Unless he was acknowledging that men and women both have sex play with men. But then that makes it sound like that men are the ones who commit rape.
And what Grenadier was saying about males being "sex-crazed apes" is that alot of times (or at least in my situation) parents caution their daughters about men and boys, and there's usually HUGE generalization going on. I mean look at how the media portrays men and boys when it comes to sex.
You and Grenadier are using different definitions of "victim blaming," Norm. Grenadier (who is not, by the way, a woman) is using the definition of "victim blaming" as an attitude best espoused by statements like "She was asking for it, wearing a short skirt like that" or "All men want sex all the time- how could I have raped him?" or "She should know better than to wear shorts and a sports bra when she's out running on a hot summer's day. WHOO-EE! The way those titties bounce! Who could resist?"
You're using the definition of opposition to "victim blaming" best espoused by statements like "Women are never safe out there at night- bad men hide in the shadows" and "Let that rapist BURN, even though the woman said 'Yes' at the time and only decided later that it was rape- clearly it was rape because she regretted it, and how could he do such a thing?" (The "victim blaming" in this case is things like "I could not have prevented my own rape, ever, even if chose to carry a gun with me everywhere and not walk around late at night alone.")
The former does exist. The latter also does exist, but it's a radical feminist viewpoint that's an overextension of the former. Most feminists aren't radical, thankfully, because those who are, are TERRIFYING.
Gren's after a perfect, ideal world in which you don't have to worry about these things at all. He is interested in the safety of women, but is unsatisfied with the necessity of extra protection for women who want to walk around alone at night. And he is unsatisfied with the stereotype of men that leads to the reason people do blame victims under his definition of "victim blaming": that men are "only after one thing."
You guys don't actually disagree. You all think rape is bad, and you all want to stop it, and you all thing that it's only the moral responsibility of the rapist if the rape is performed. The only difference is that Gren is focusing on achieving that ideal world in which women don't have to be extra careful, and you have your feet planted firmly on the ground and know that it isn't the case right now and in order to keep women from getting raped right now, they have to be more careful.
(And, of course, though neither of you is really addressing it, as long as we're talking about victim blaming it would be super nice to not blame male victims of rape or try to high-five them and call them studs for going through a very traumatic experience ... That's a result of the same sort of male stereotype that Gren mentioned.)
Pierce,
Has he been raped since he gave into her verbal desires without being "enthusiastic"? No sane person would suggest that, but by this inane "enthusiastic" standard that is the only logical conclusion.I know you're describing the whole "enthusiastic" idea, but it seems like you're leaving out the whole idea that rape uses FORCE.
First, good discussion.
Second, Renee, most state statutes criminalize quasi-rape, often called sexual assault or some variant, that does not require force but only the absence of consent.
This is where the "enthustiasm" crowd comes in. They want to impose enthusiasm as an additional requirement to consent.
It would be great if our social customs required signed statements, let alone enthusism, before sex, but that's not how people get romantic. The law generally follows, acknowledges and accepts social customs -- so to criminalize consensual sex without enthusiasm is to punish one gender only for the social customs of both. Until the social customs change, it's not fair to penalize men and boys for doing things the old fashioned way. In any event, how on earth do you measure "enthusiasm"? Do they sell "enthusiasm" meters?
Sonia,
"Grenadier (who is not, by the way, a woman) is using the definition of "victim blaming" as an attitude best espoused by statements like "She was asking for it, wearing a short skirt like that..."
Sorry, that attitute has not existed for decades. It's ludicrous to try and resuscitate that argument at this point in time. To say, "well, it still happens" means a few guy might still have that attitude...so what? The fact that SOME guys still have it says something about those some guys, not about a general attitude toward women that the public has.
Although, it has now been show that physical attractiveness IS a factor in rape, unlike what the feminists have been telling us for decades. That is why most rape victims are in their teens, 20's and 30's.
Sonia,
I can't tell from your entry above whether you are saying MY viewpoint IS, "Women are never safe out there at night- bad men hide in the shadows" and "Let that rapist BURN, even though the woman said 'Yes' at the time and only decided later that it was rape- clearly it was rape because she regretted it, and how could he do such a thing?"
None of that espouses my viewpoint.
For example, it's just plain paranoid to say 'women are never safe out there'..99.99% of the time they ARE safe, but the news media and others have created an atmosphere of hysteria and paranoia, that has everyone looking over their shoulders. Also it is parially repsonsible for P.C.
Norm is right about the paranoia. It is used to perpetuate lots and lots of myths about "scary" males.
I know this goes against their entire rape culture metanarrative, and I am sorry to muddy up a perfectly good victim fetish, but anyone not intoxicated on Womyn's Studies knows that innocent MEN are victims of violence far more often than women. There is no dispute about that. None. You can even consult sources that feminists would consider unimpeachable: "Yes Means Yes: Visons of Female Sexual Power and a World Without Rape," by Jaclyn Friedman and Jessica Vallenti (2008) at page 23: "Men are 150 percent more likely to be the victims of violent crimes than women. . . . Men are more likely to be victimized by a stranger . . . ."
Did you get that? Yet we have an entire month dedicated to WOMEN'S fear of men -- Sexual Assault Awareness Month. The result? Well, for purposes of this blog, the result is to foster a false rape culture. With all the irrational fear-mongering Chicken Littles running about warning women not that "the sky is falling!" but that "men can't be trusted!" the slightest whiff of a rape allegation is automatically believed. The male-as-predator hysteria gives automatic plausibility to every rape claim, even the ones that are false. And when a rape accuser is automatically believed, the man or boy she accuses is automatically branded a rapist in the court of last resort, the American dinner table where clucking tongues pass judgment on everything under the sun based on nothing more than unsubstantiated feelings. And that is intolerable on any level.
So ask yourself, in light of the facts (as opposed to the feminist metanarrative), which class of citizens should most fear walking alone?
And which class of citizens has given in to irrational fear-mongering?
Further, why does the class of citizens least victimized by violent crime not seem to give a damn about the safety of the class that is actually the most victimized? (That's actually a very interesting question, isn't it?)
Then, after you've answered all those questions honestly, the following question should answer itself: Do women really need to "take back the night," or has it been theirs all along?
It's amazing that this is even an object of discussion! I've just been doing some research on rape on the internet and happened to stumble along this article. First of all, if you want to be taken seriously and appear educated in your argument (if you really are at all educated on the reality of these situations) then you should at least take the time to use proper grammar. The fact that you do not already shows your ignorance. That's before even reading the actual article.
Once I read it I was even more shocked. How could one even suggest that it is as traumatic to be accused of rape as it is to be raped? Unless you have been raped yourself, you have absolutely no right to make such a statement. The only way one can know how it feels to be raped is if they have been raped themselves. Have you been raped? I doubt it. Also, maybe you should do a little research of your own (I don't really need to do it for you) and try to get an actual clue about how many people are victimized by rape, and how many people are falsely accused. I think you'll find that people who are victims of rape VASTLY outnumber people who have falsely been accused of rape. That is of course, if actual facts and statistics mean anything to you. From reading your article it would appear not as you just seem to use your own opinions and biases to explain everything away.
I've read a couple of the comments posted as well. I just wanted to see if there were really that many sick people out there who would support and agree with the message of this article. I should not be shocked at what I found but I am a bit to be honest. I like to believe that people in this world are becoming more educated and more tolerant, but there are still so many of you who are not. For example, Mark, who wrote about how women should take more responsibility in protecting themselves from being raped and who says his girlfriend was raped. Reading his comment made me feel sick to my stomach, how a person could be so ignorant. Rape is rape. Rape is a crime. If at ANY point a woman states that she does not wish to engage in any type of sexual activity, even if she had previously agreed to it, no sexual activity should take place or it is RAPE. It does not matter what a woman wears, where she is, how she is behaving, or anything else. There is no way to justify rape. A woman could be wearing saran wrap and walking down a dark back alley. That still does not give anyone the right to rape or sexually assault her. If a person parks their car in a bad neighbourhood, that does not give anyone the right to steal it. Same idea, that should be simple enough for you to understand. Telling women that they should be more responsible and try harder to avoid rape it an amazing statement. It is not the women who need to change their behaviour, it is the people who rape who need to change their behaviour. Women have the right to live freely and safely and should not have to be constantly paranoid of being raped and go out of their way to avoid being in certain places or wearing certain clothing. Our society needs to change and view rape for what it really is - a felony. Just like any other crime, it should never be excused. Rape is the only crime where the victim must prove their innocence as well as the offender. This sounds pretty ridiculous (to a sensible person) in this day and age, but sadly this is still the case.
I find it very hard to stomach a long post on this topic from someone who believes that it is "amazing that this is even an object of discussion!" It more feels like a way to belittle comments made by those who also have a strong view on the subject. No need for psychological devices here, just logical thinking and structured debate.
The only example I can think of to explain why people believe that, in the small number of rape cases where this applies, the victim could have used a little more sense is in the film Die Hard With A Vengeance (can you guess which sex I am?!). The first time John McClane meets Zeus (Samuel L Jackson) in the film is when he is wearing a sandwich board which says, in bold letters, "I Hate N*****" (I'm sure you don't need to be told which N word that is). A stupid thing to do, obviously - even more so because he is in the middle of Harlem at the time.
No-one here (I'm sure/I hope) is espousing the view that all women are to blame for what happens to them. However, I believe they are trying to say that a woman (who will likely be physically inferior to any man she meets) who gets drunk, dresses like a woman of the night, and then walks home alone through darkened alleys may as well be wearing a sandwich board saying "To any rapists out there - I am vulnerable and alone. Please do nasty things to me."
As far as I can see, all anyone has been talking about on this thread has been that women, especially after a night out on the tiles, should use a little common sense. Get in a licenced cab, or get a friend/partner/relative to pick you up. If this advice is followed, then the possibility of rape is reduced dramatically (if not extinguished altogether).
Obviously, in a perfect world a woman wouldn't have to worry about such things. Of course, in a perfect world there would be no rape. Just to make sure those reading this realise, WE DO NOT LIVE IN A PERFECT WORLD. Live with it.
I just saw that long paragraph. What a poor writer she is.
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