Comment: The young woman in the following news story says she may have consented, but the police are still investigating if her level of intoxication might have negated valid consent.
Pardon me, but who would know better than the subject? If she says she gave consent, how on earth will law enforcement personnel be able to say she couldn't?
At least in this case, the young woman is taking responsibility for the fact that she was drinking (voluntarily); and when she leveled the claim, it was because she couldn't remember. (Of course, if she couldn't remember, how can she state unequivocally that she was raped? )
This is a perfect example of a case that ought to be dropped because proceeding to trial on these facts would be guesswork. Should a young man's liberty, his entire life, be put at risk on a D.A.'s gamble to try to notch another conviction -- as if this were a game of Russian Roulette?
In addition, if the individual she had sex with does turn out to be a juvenile, will she be charged with statutory rape?
Alcohol a factor in false rape charge
An 18-year-old woman who told police she was raped during a fraternity party last week is changing her story as her memory returns, and is now saying she may have consented to the sex, police said this morning.
Ypsilanti Police Lt. Craig Annas said the woman has admitted she was intoxicated when she went into a bathroom at the Kappa Phi Alpha house in the 100 block of North Normal Street and found four men smoking marijuana inside.
Annas said the woman's memory is returning now, and she will be interviewed again today.
He said that she now remembers dancing with several of the men inside, including one with whom she had earlier been "affectionate." Two of the men have told police similar stories, and said they left the room when the woman and one of the four began to have sex.
Annas said police talked over the phone with that male, and plan to interview him today.
But Annas said that person is apparently not an Eastern Michigan University student, and may turn out to be a juvenile.
Annas said the incident could still be criminal, if Washtenaw County prosecutors determine the woman was too intoxicated to give legal consent to have sex. Eastern Michigan University has suspended the fraternity during the investigation.
Link:
http://www.mlive.com/news/ann-arbor/index.ssf/2009/02/eastern_michigan_university_st_1.html
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15 comments:
"If she says she gave consent, how on earth will law enforcement personnel be able to say she couldn't?"
come on. The answer's in the last paragraph.
Oh, Norm, come on.
My rebuttal is above. Precisely how would law enforcement officers be able to tell that she was "too" intoxicated at this point, for goodness sakes? Is there a magic blood point level? It is very easy to tell noon from midnight, but at what point does twilight become night? And why can't we believe there is reasonable doubt when the subject herself says, "yeah, you know what, I think I consented." We're going to destroy a man's life when the accuser herself is not certain?
And really the test isn't whether she was "too" intoxicated -- it's whether a reasonable person in HIS position thought she was too intoxicated (some jurisdictions make this a good faith test). If she thinks she gave consent, what would he have thought?
Reasonable doubt, Norm. Reasonable doubt.
"But Annas said that person is apparently not an Eastern Michigan University student, and may turn out to be a juvenile.
Annas said the incident could still be criminal, if Washtenaw County prosecutors determine the woman was too intoxicated to give legal consent to have sex."
These two thoughts, in to adjacent paragraph's provide a very clear indication of how law enforcement tends to see different "responsibilities" based on the genders.
If an inebriated collage-aged man had had sex with a juvenile woman (even if SHE was stone-cold sober, and initiated the encounter), then he'd be deemed guilty of statutory rape.
But here, we have a collage-aged woman having sex with a juvenile male; and the term "statutory rape" never even comes up.
No, the only consideration of possible wrong-doing is that SHE (and she alone) might have been "too drunk" to have given legal consent.
What about the juvenile male?
The fact that he, too, might have been too drunk to make a sound judgment means absolutely nothing.
Even if she was the instigator of the sex, neither his age nor his level of impairment enter into the consideration of possible wrong-doing.
Simple message - only men can be culpable when sex goes bad.
". . . only men can be culpable when sex goes bad."
Exactly. Sex is something men do and that women have done to. And tell me, how is that "equality"?
”Exactly. Sex is something men do and that women have done to. And tell me, how is that "equality"?”
Along these same lines, one of the most popular “myths” out there is the notion that men get women drunk in order to have sex with them – as if they are pulling some sort of “trick” on the women. While men certainly do provide alcohol/drugs to women in the hopes of lowering their inhibitions, the absurd notion that only men act in ways to secure sex flies square in the face of what has to be the worst-kept secret of today’s culture – WOMEN PURPOSEFULLY USE ALCOHOL/DRUGS TO HAVE SEX!
While women tend not to have the same level of physical “drive” for sex, they certainly have a level of desire which rivals men’s. Where men are hard-wired to pursue sex, women are hard-wired to desire to be the object of men’s sexual drive. Both men and women desire sex, and both derive great pleasure from it.
But, women are the traditional “gatekeepers” and thus tend to have greater natural inhibitions. Thus, in order to satiate their desire for sex, women find that they need to overcome their inhibitions (or, to put it more accurately – they FULLY understand that they need to overcome those inhibitions).
Alcohol has long been euphemistically called “liquid courage”. It is well understood to lower inhibitions for those who otherwise feel to timid to act in certain ways. Women understand this every bit as well as do men.
Whether a woman accepts a drink from a man, or (as is so often the case, shows up already having had a drink or three), she is fully cogniscient that alcohol will serve to lower her inhibitions – and she makes that very choice. Unless she is a total naïve’ imbecile, she knows quite well that she will be much more likely to desire/consent to sex. In effect, by choosing to drink alcohol or take drugs, a woman is essentially determining that she is interested and willing in regards to the possibility of sex.
No one is holding the proverbial gun to her head. She chooses of her own free-will to engage in something that is more than likely to lead to sex.
And, getting back to my earlier point – that is exactly what women intend to do. They want to have sex, but recognize that they need to lower their inhibitions.
From what I can gather, a woman’s sexual desire tends to be rather narcissistic in nature. They want to be the object of a man’s desire. They want to be “picked” by a desirable man from out of the field of available women as the one he chooses to pursue for sex. [some imply that this is connected to the otherwise seemingly irrational “rape fantasies” of some women].
Towards that end, women understand that they need to act in ways to make themselves seem more desirable than their “competition”. Women spend hours and dollars on clothes and make-up. Some chose to dress in a deliberately provocative manner. Other women will find they need a little of that liquid courage to put themselves “out” in that way. A couple of drinks will help a woman dress in a way she could never feel comfortable doing when sober.
And, sometimes, even this isn’t enough for them. Virtually all women today are quite aware of the “Girls Gone Wild” phenomenon. Most women would not choose to expose themselves to random men while sober – yet they cannot be unaware that plenty of women do just that when they are drunk.
So, when they choose to get drunk, women must certainly understand that, in those settings where such things take place, that they will be more likely to engage in such exhibitionism.
Of course, there’s never a shortage of women choosing to do just that – it all goes back to the underlying desire of woman to have men desire them. They purposefully choose to do things that they (rightly or not) believe will attract men’s sexual desire to them. Alcohol is simply the means for them to be able to lower their inhibitions to get to the point that they will be able to do such things that they are fully aware they could never do when sober.
It’s really no secret that women are actively and purposefully using drugs and alcohol to achieve sex. The great hypocrisy is that they both use it to have sex, and then to “excuse” themselves after-the-fact. Now-a-days, that self excusing too often takes the form a false rape charge – willfully aided by a stubbornly chivalrous cultural “norm” which clings to the dumb-assed notion that women are “sugar and spice”, sweet and innocent, and not the debase creatures we so frequently see. Thus, the equally ridiculous notion that only woman can be too drunk to consent – since, obviously, “sex is something men do and that women have done to them”.
Thank you for your work (with this site) in helping to call BS on this stuff.
slwerner, excellent analysis. I could not have said it better. The only thing I'd add is this: juries ain't buying it when women make false rape claims to absolve themselves of personal responsibility for drinking.
An old man told me his perspective of whats going on. He fought in WW2, and it was an age where there was "NO SEX TILL YOU"RE MARRIED" or you're going to hell.
Then the sexual revolution came, and there was sex in the streets.
Now we are dealing with the post free love era, where the only safe sex is gay sex, or no sex.
all I'm saying is if a woman appears to not have all her faculties, especially if and when the police show up at the scene, it is considered under the law to be the man's responsibility to recognize that and behave accordingly, at least in some jurisdiction. There doesn't need to be a specific level of alcohol..like you said, how would they test or set it?
Even if it devolves into a he-said she-said, if the police are inclined to believe the woman in general, especially about being raped, why wouldn't they be inclined to believe she drank, even if just little? They're inclined to believe women - that's the bottom line.
Archivist,
see my above comment. Also, when you say,
"we're going to ruin a man's life?" and "reasonable doubt", I'm not sure where you're coming from. I didn't say I *agreed* with the last paragraph's reasoning - my obviously comment was that that is the way it works, as far as the police are concerned.
I'm an MRA, remember?
Norm, I was hoping that's what you meant -- the way you worded scared me because I thought, "Oh, no -- if we've lost Norm, we're really in trouble!" Whew! We are, as always, on the same page.
women never, ever, ever, ever lie about rape. Why would they lie about something like that???
I know, subtle sarcasm has gotten me in trouble with the guys on other men's boards too. I need to control that British dry humor! (not that I'm British).
I agree though, it always turns out we are on the same page.
Norm - all I'm saying is if a woman appears to not have all her faculties, especially if and when the police show up at the scene, it is considered under the law to be the man's responsibility to recognize that and behave accordingly, at least in some jurisdiction.
And that begs the question....what if the man has had just as much to drink? Doesn't that mean that he is impaired and unable to make these types of judgments? The double standard in that is blinding. How long before we begin to see this argument used by women driving drunk....and getting away with it?
It is past time that women admit and accept some responsibility for putting themselves in dangerous situations. Is rape a horrible thing? Of course it is. But there are many women out there who seem to think that getting passed out drunk with a group of people you don't know is nothing to worry about. It is frustrating, and infuriating, that women demand equality, but refuse to accept the responsibility that goes with it.
There is a growing movement of men in this country (U.S.) and others that are ready to level the playing field. I hope that the women, who truly are equality feminists, show their open support for the MRA movement, as they are after the same thing. Equal Opportunity and equal treatment when it comes to the courts.
Why is that so hard for modern feminism to understand? (Rhetorical question)
So you get drunk and drive a car - you are responsible. You get drunk and have consentual sex with someone - they are at fault.
Thanks a lot for a bunch of good tips. I look forward to reading more on the topic in the future. Keep up the good work! This blog is going to be great resource. Love reading it.
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